[xj] Borg Warner type 66 2nd to 3rd shift problem, Series 3 xj6

Chaps,

I’ve got a series 3 4.2 with a 3 spd auto.

The gearbox mostly works as it should apart from a problem
on changing from 2nd to 3rd. It holds 2nd gear well past
the stated shift point.

To get it to shift into 3rd I release the throttle
completely and then it changes up and I re-apply the
throttle.

Another way to make it shift into 3rd is ( with the car
in ‘D’ ) is to wait to about 30 odd mph and then pull the
gear lever to ‘2’ and then push it back into ‘D’…!!

I understand that the shifts are done via a comparison of
govenor pressure to shift valve pressure ( which means
valve block removal and clean out ) but has anyone got any
advice to offer ?

Cheers–
rich schofield
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In reply to a message from rich schofield sent Fri 29 Jan 2016:

Hi Rich,

I have no personal experience with this set-up. I see the
manual suggests ‘‘strip valve bodies and clean’’ for your
symptoms, but I would be inclined to first check that the
throttle modulation sensing (kick down cable) is working
properly in case you get an easy fix there, although it
looks like this still involves dropping the pan…–
The original message included these comments:

I’ve got a series 3 4.2 with a 3 spd auto.
The gearbox mostly works as it should apart from a problem
on changing from 2nd to 3rd. It holds 2nd gear well past
the stated shift point.


Simon Ellery S1 XJ6
Kalgoorlie, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
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In reply to a message from rich schofield sent Fri 29 Jan 2016:

Hi Rich,

I have no personal experience with this set-up. I see the
manual suggests ‘‘strip valve bodies and clean’’ for your
symptoms, but I would be inclined to first check that the
throttle modulation sensing (kick down cable) is working
properly in case you get an easy fix there, although it
looks like this still involves dropping the pan…

Adjusting the kick-down cable would principally affect all shifting points,
Simon - and the shift quality…

But your point is well taken - picking apart the valve body is no walk in
the park - it’s intricate, even if you know what you are looking for. In
principle, the cable should be adjusted using pressure point take-off - a
standard procedure, and any auto box shop can easily do it. The adjustment
tunes the valve body pressures to the output pressure delivered by the
engine driven pump - actually, the box works by differential pressures
rather than absolute pressures…

He should first check if the ferrule crimped on to the shift cable is
present - and adjust the cable to a clearance of 0.01" from the threaded
adjuster. The ferrule is crimped on at the adjustment - and cable stretching
may alter the adjustment, and adjusting the cable length should bring the
setting back to the original pressures…

His description of the problem is somewhat rudimentary, but the box reacts
to gas pedal position for shifting. The more pedal the later the shifting -
when testing the shift points; constant light throttle is called for, any
more pedal input during the shifting will delay upshifts…

Apart from the pedal position, the box also use engine rpms and the input
from the governor (road speed) to select shifting. A governor fault may
influence shift points, but nominally equally for 1/2 and 2/3, of course…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

The original message included these comments:-----Original Message-----
From: Colonial 1
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 1:44 PM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] Borg Warner type 66 2nd to 3rd shift problem, Series 3 xj6

I’ve got a series 3 4.2 with a 3 spd auto.
The gearbox mostly works as it should apart from a problem
on changing from 2nd to 3rd. It holds 2nd gear well past
the stated shift point.

===================================================
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1 Like

In reply to a message from rich schofield sent Fri 29 Jan 2016:

Did the problem commence suddenly, come on gradually, or
always been there?

I would probably try slight adjustments of cable first, you
have nothing to lose.

Recently removed and stripped a valve body from a scrapped
BW8, prior to tackling what I thought was a fault inside my
trans, (turned out cable ferrule was not properly engaged)

It was not difficult. I took MANY digi-pics, including one
after removing EACH part.

There was only springs and pistons, beware they can slide
out unexpectedly from the opposite side you expect.

Interestingly, I did find a broken spring, but this may have
had some corrosion due to water ingress.

There are many pipes leading to/from valve body.

R&R them from underside of car would be intimidating, but
not impossible

Even pros may be reluctant I expect.–
The original message included these comments:

I’ve got a series 3 4.2 with a 3 spd auto.
The gearbox mostly works as it should apart from a problem
on changing from 2nd to 3rd. It holds 2nd gear well past
the stated shift point.
To get it to shift into 3rd I release the throttle
completely and then it changes up and I re-apply the
throttle.


Tony
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from rich schofield sent Fri 29 Jan 2016:

Thanks for the replies.

Just to confirm - visually ( from engine bay ) the kickdown
cable looks ok…the ferule on the kickdown cable is in the
correct location ( measured ). However, oil Pressures not
checked as not got a gauge to do so.

Light throttle is always used !..

The problem started one day when it just started holding in
2nd when in ‘D’, gearbox fluids have been regularly changed
and oil is still a good colour.

What makes me confused is why the ‘D to 2 to D’ always
makes it change into 3rd, ? ( obviously providing speed and
throttle are correct for change to take place )

I guess the next step will be to remove 'box sump cover and
check for anything obvious…

There is a rubber sump gasket for a type 65 on ebay ( to
replace the cork original ( which mine has ) - I believe
this should fit a 66, can anyone confirm ?

cheers–
rich schofield
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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1 Like

I’m having this exact probably! Even down to the shifting from d to 2nd and then back.
Did you ever find out how to fix it?

@Paul_M_Novak… you seem to be an XJ6 guru… any clue?

Tension it until you get a clunk coming to a stop, don’t run it too low (shifts too early) as it would wear quickly. That or get a pressure gauge and have a look. Same thread as a grease gun. The ferrule is useless.

Anything else is more involved. Frank already outlined how it works. Welcome Rick!

Paul,
I experienced some 2nd to 3rd gear shift issues in the BW66s my two former XJ6s when swapping out the engines and transmissions. I
easily resolved them by adjusting the kickdown cables as described in theJag-Lovers archives. I planned to try adjusting them using the pressure gauge but never quite got around to that because I was successful in getting the shifting to my liking with trial and error on the kick down cable adjustments. I also adjusted the transmission bands while I had the engines/transmissions on my engine test stands prior to installation. If I was having a 2nd to 3rd shift problems I would first adjust the bands per the Series III Service Manual and then adjust the kickdown cable a little at a time until I found the “sweet spot” for shifting.

Paul

1 Like

Alas, Rick - solution was not reported back…

…and anyway; same symptoms may have entirely different causes - what works in one case doesn’t necessarily work other times. Did the problem occur suddenly or gradually…?

Normal shifting, light throttle; ‘1/2’ at 8 -12 mph - ‘2/3’ 13 - 19 mph. Ie moving off at light throttle the box shifts seamlessly to high gear at low speed. ‘2/1’ downshift, throttle released 5 - 10 mph. Full throttle upshift; ‘1/2’ at 42 to 53 mph - ‘2/3’ at 66 - 75 mph.

Errors; the first suspect is the downshift cable - which tells the box what the driver wants. As Paul says; tweaking the cable adjustment may work - though, as remarked, using fluid pressure gauge as per manual is quicker. Trial and error takes time and some nous - a quarter of a turn is a lot, and it must be tried in steps either way. And is a waste if the fault is elsewhere - it may be the valve body, or indeed a sticking governor.

The cable adjustment sort of tells the box the state of the engine, then modifies pressure generated by
engine rpms according to pedal position - further modified by the governor according to road speed. And the box applies bands and clutches to change gears accordingly. Just like a driver with a manual box - downshifting for more rpms/power, and upshifting for economy/cruising…

Late upshift points to governor - but does not exclude other areas…

For the record; you have checked fluid level - idling hot? And do inspect the downshift cable connection at the box - it sometimes fails. Checking the crimped on ferrule at the throttle pedestal is routine - if clearances are incorrect; it’s worth while resetting as a test…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

1 Like

I suspect causes are age, sticking or cable stretch. The ferrule won’t help with that.
Does it kick down from third as it used to?

Frank is right about sensitivity of cable adjustment, count the turns and write them down.

I’m with Paul- adjust the bands first and then adjust the cable.

Cheers
DD

Yeah fair enough. I don’t really have the know how to play with cables and whatnot, I’d most likely pay someone that knows what they’re doing, to say I’m a novice would be kind. I just did a service though and replaced filter and fluids which looked like it hadn’t been done for quite some time. I did find a small tooth looking piece of metal in the old filter which I sure wouldn’t be helping.
After servicing it was changing alot smoother and started changing into 3 on its own around 80km/pH, but I mess up when I was putting on the pan gasket and it got ruined when I when for a test drive so im waiting for a new gasket to come I the mail so I can try again

Dexron 3?

You need to give a throttle position for the 80 kph upshift. Sounds like it’s good though. If you want, put up a photo of the metal piece and we can all guess what it might be.

Playing with the cable is easy, adjusting the bands is an effort best done on a lift while at it. Not too difficult to adjust in itself.

Upshift 2/3 at 80 kph with high throttle setting is in the ballpark, Rick - but what is the shifting at minimum throttle settings…?

Having the box professionally set is the best way forward - any reputable transmission shop can handle it. The drawback is they tend to find faults you don’t want to hear about…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

Using Castrol type F.


This is the piece I found

I only got to give one quick run, but at minimum throttle it didn’t seem like it was going to change at all and I had to give it a little the then drop it back and it would change around 80kph.
Once the new gasket and I can have a little bit more of I run I guess I’ll know if I’ll be needing the pros to have a look, but like you said they have a way of finding things I don’t want haha.

If it is hard plastic and maybe grey it is one of the four retainer clips of the thing that leads the throttle cable into the transmission, top left just behind the torque converter. The clips are on the inside and I have one that misses all. Type F shouldn’t give really soft shifts so either make the gauge yourself or play with the cable a little. You want it to give a hard clunk shifting into 1st at the lights and then just loosen it a little again until that is barely noticeable.
Mine goes into third (as you described it) when I‘m at 55+, then a little nudge and it drops.

**
As David says; the plastic bit you found may be the downshift cable retainer, Rick - which would likely disturb the cable adjustment. It may be possible to adjust the cable to compensate to get the shift-points correct - but the proper procedure is of course to first replace the retainer.

Under light throttle, the box should upshift 1/2/3 within a 19 mph speed increase. A such slow speed the box should downshift with lite throttle input…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

I don’t know if it can disturb the adjustment at all… however, there might be a reason it broke off. It is a pain to replace! And can probably be avoided, by adjusting it.