[xj] Fan Clutch - Totally Baffled!

As I reported to the list before, my early SIII (same fan and
clutch as the SII - RPM activated) spins for a full 2 seconds on
shutdown, and my temps are to warm again. I am on my THIRD OEM
CLUTCH!

Here is what SII owners reported to me:

  1. ‘‘The fan & fan clutch on a S2 are 2 separate items.
    The fan should stop the same as your S3 on shutdown i.e. should
    only rotate about 1 - 1/2 turns.’’

  2. ‘‘The fan will stop direct after shutdown’’

  3. ‘‘The fan definitely kept turning after the engine stopped. I
    would estimate about half a second, and just a few revolutions.’’

  4. ‘‘It will spin some after shutdown. Maybe 1 or 2 revolutions.
    Perhaps a bit more but never 6 or 7.Mine spins for less than 1
    second’’

  5. ‘‘Mine spins for less than 1 second’’

  6. ‘‘The fan clutch didn’t pinwheel. It stopped within about a
    half second of shutdown. Probably much the same as your S3.’’

Soooooo, what the heck is going on with mine. The inner race lis
locked to the pump shaft and DOES stop with the pump. But the
rest of the clutch and fan spin on for 2 seconds, unlike the
reports above.

I have tried the '‘reverse the step washer’ routine, to no avail.

Anyone have a clue what the problem might be? Until I can
eliminate the fan clutch as the culprit, I can’t effectively
troubleshoot my warm running problem.

Cheers–
Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
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As I reported to the list before, my early SIII (same fan and
clutch as the SII - RPM activated) spins for a full 2 seconds on
shutdown, and my temps are to warm again. I am on my THIRD OEM
CLUTCH!

It really depends from which RPM range you (or anyone else) shuts it
down. If you switch off when it’s idling the fan makes only a couple
more revs before halting. If you switch the engine off from, say 3K
rpm the fan will spin much longer since the fluid clutch is
disengaged at somewhere above 2.5K. Maybe you should try doing that:
if the fan stops immediately the clutch’s probably gone wrong. Also
you could apply some throttle while leaning over the engine bay: from
idle to about 2.5K revs airflow should increase, but over 2.5 K revs
it should stay at that level.
I can’t really comment on the rising temp. except that I find it
curious, because OEM clutches should last for quite some time.
If all else fails: Welsh have 'em on sale…–
Arnoud

iMac, therefore I am

http://www.se7en.nl

1973 Daimler Double-Six SWB
1989 Jaguar Sovereign HE
1983 XJ-S parts car

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In reply to a message from Arnoud sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

Just for info, I am shuting down at idle, and the fan spins 2
seconds or more.

Cheers–
The original message included these comments:

It really depends from which RPM range you (or anyone else) shuts it
down. If you switch off when it’s idling the fan makes only a couple
more revs before halting. If you switch the engine off from, say 3K


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
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In reply to a message from Arnoud sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

Just for info, I am shuting down at idle, and the fan spins 2
seconds or more.

Cheers

So, in what rev range does the airflow level out?
Two full secs. seems to be a bit long. Like I said before; two, maybe
three revs after shutdown from idle (700-ish rpm) would be about
right. If yours is spinning for that long the fluid might have
vanished, causing the clutch to slip too soon, so the fan never
actually makes it to 2.500 rpm. This would cause the temp rise as
airflow is insufficient.
I guess the only way to find out is fit (yet) another one, maybe this
time not an OEM one, but the one I mentioned earlier, which made Ron
Reiss a happy guy after I installed it in his car.

regards,–
Arnoud

iMac, therefore I am

http://www.se7en.nl

1973 Daimler Double-Six SWB
1989 Jaguar Sovereign HE

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In reply to a message from Arnoud sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

Thanks Arnoud. 3 bad OEM fan clutches is quite a stretch, but
short of that I don’t know why they all spin excessivley on this
car. I cannot test airflow right now, as the cooling system is
partially disassembled, but I will do it.

Also will check timing, vacuum, cat, and get the tailpipe sniffed.
But even if all above checks out, I will always question the
excessive spindown, regardless.

Cheers–
Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
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Larry, let’s try a different approach.

Does the fan seem to be pulling lot’s of air?

Here’s an idea, though I’ll admit it’s not very scientific. Put both your
'80 and your '87 side by side and run them at idle till fully warmed up.
Open the bonnets, and compare, by feel, just how much air is being pulled
thru on each.

Now, I know we have different fans and different clutch types… but if
there is little or no difference between the two, then maybe you can put the
fan clutch issue out of your mind. If there’s a huge difference, with the
'80 having much less air flow, you can pursue it further.

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA----- Original Message -----
From: “Larry Karpman” lkarpman@attbi.com

Thanks Arnoud. 3 bad OEM fan clutches is quite a stretch, but
short of that I don’t know why they all spin excessivley on this
car. I cannot test airflow right now, as the cooling system is
partially disassembled, but I will do it.

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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

Thanks, as usual, Doug. That’s one of the plans for this weekend
if I get the system put back together.

Cheers–
The original message included these comments:

Here’s an idea, though I’ll admit it’s not very scientific. Put both your
'80 and your '87 side by side and run them at idle till fully warmed up.
Open the bonnets, and compare, by feel, just how much air is being pulled
thru on each.
Now, I know we have different fans and different clutch types… but if
there is little or no difference between the two, then maybe you can put the
fan clutch issue out of your mind. If there’s a huge difference, with the
'80 having much less air flow, you can pursue it further.
Doug Dwyer


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
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In reply to a message from Larry Karpman sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

UPDATE:

Ok, I’ve now put on the third new OEM fan clutch, put in the
proper 88C Waxstat, had the drain plug mount resoldered, put in
new coolant, and test driven the car.

Test drove (A/C ON at 65) 1 mile thru residential traffic, no
lights and temp built to 90C. Got on highway for 6 miles (3 miles
each way), and temp was pegged on 91C. 1 mile back to house, with
2 stops lights in residential traffic, temp built to 93-94 when I
pulled in driveway. No aux fans on. Outside temp only 86F and
humid.

So, apparantly my problem remains. Even with a rodded radiator,
new clutch, new 88C thermo, she still is running warm. She ran
great for 2 weeks after I first had this done, so I’m still
baffled. Will check timing, vacuum, sniff tail pipe ASAP for head
gasket leak. I don’t know how I can check the water pump without
pulling it.

I’m hesitant to drive any greater distance, so my question now is
this. I know the kitty isn’t performing to standard, but how bad
off is she? (please don’t say 4 degrees off :slight_smile:

Cheers–
The original message included these comments:

As I reported to the list before, my early SIII (same fan and
clutch as the SII - RPM activated) spins for a full 2 seconds on
shutdown, and my temps are to warm again. I am on my THIRD OEM
CLUTCH!


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Larry Karpman writes:
So, apparantly my problem remains. Even with a rodded radiator,
new clutch, new 88C thermo, she still is running warm.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you tried running without A/C? Your test doesn’t mention this.
My car has always run some 2-4 degrees hotter with it.

This has been discussed ad infinitum, and the consensus seems
to be that 95C or less causes little concern. Indeed, after
you shut down, heat soak can raise it by 10-15C.

I don’t need A/C unless I have passengers or am wearing black tie–you know, dry AZ heat–as it cuts gas mileage by4-5 MPG.

James
4/86 Federal @ 106K in PHX – Keep the cause; the cause is just.

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James,

It was 112 here in the Phoenix I live in three days ago. Dry heat, coat & tie or not,
that’s A/C weather!

JoeOn 8 Jun 2002 at 19:49, James Cann wrote:

I don’t need A/C unless I have passengers or am wearing black tie–you
know, dry AZ heat–as it cuts gas mileage by4-5 MPG.

James
4/86 Federal @ 106K in PHX – Keep the cause; the cause is just.

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In reply to a message from James Cann sent Sun 9 Jun 2002:

Thanks James. Yes, it will run a bit cooler with the a/c off, but
in Texas in the summer, for me at least, that’s not an option. I
lived in Alaska for 11 years and have never readapted to the
heat :slight_smile:

My '87 never gets above 90 with the a/c on regardless of the
outside temp. It used to run hotter last year, but we fixed that
with rodding, fan clutch and new thermo.

Yes, AZ is a dry heat, but so is the surface of the sun, and I’m
not going there either :slight_smile: Seriously, I haven’t heard the thread
that says 95 is OK with the a/c on. All I have ever heard on the
list is ‘‘88-90 all the time’’ I’ll do an archive search though.

I’m getting a stiff neck straining to see the temp gauge head on
for fear my temp will be over 90 :slight_smile:

Thanks again for you input.

Cheers–
The original message included these comments:

Have you tried running without A/C? Your test doesn’t mention this.
My car has always run some 2-4 degrees hotter with it.
This has been discussed ad infinitum, and the consensus seems
to be that 95C or less causes little concern. Indeed, after
you shut down, heat soak can raise it by 10-15C.
I don’t need A/C unless I have passengers or am wearing black tie–you know, dry AZ heat–as it cuts gas mileage by4-5 MPG.
James


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
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Larry Karpman wrote:

In reply to a message from Larry Karpman sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

UPDATE:

Ok, I’ve now put on the third new OEM fan clutch, put in the
proper 88C Waxstat, had the drain plug mount resoldered, put in
new coolant, and test driven the car.

Test drove (A/C ON at 65) 1 mile thru residential traffic, no
lights and temp built to 90C. Got on highway for 6 miles (3 miles
each way), and temp was pegged on 91C. 1 mile back to house, with
2 stops lights in residential traffic, temp built to 93-94 when I
pulled in driveway. No aux fans on. Outside temp only 86F and
humid.

So, apparantly my problem remains. Even with a rodded radiator,
new clutch, new 88C thermo, she still is running warm. She ran
great for 2 weeks after I first had this done, so I’m still
baffled. Will check timing, vacuum, sniff tail pipe ASAP for head
gasket leak. I don’t know how I can check the water pump without
pulling it.

I’m hesitant to drive any greater distance, so my question now is
this. I know the kitty isn’t performing to standard, but how bad
off is she? (please don’t say 4 degrees off :slight_smile:

Get rid of those auxilliary fans, Larry! They are clearly impeding an
already precarious airflow through the radiator, which is the basic
problem.

As an alternative, or to demonstrate the point, set them to run
continuously for a spin. And if you insist on keeping them, at least
ensure that they come on at, say, 5C below thermostat temperature.

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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Frank, I’m guessing that Larry’s reply might be “What would the aux fans be
doing today that they were not doing 2 weeks ago when the car was
running several degrees cooler ?” :slight_smile:

(For the record, in case anyone was wondering, Larry’s car is an early Ser
III variant with * two * auxiliary electric fans, factory fitted)

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA----- Original Message -----
From: “Frank Andersen” franksue@xtra.co.nz

Get rid of those auxilliary fans, Larry! They are clearly impeding an
already precarious airflow through the radiator, which is the basic
problem.

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G’day Larry,

Perhaps you could try to lock the fan clutch, so it doesn’t slip, and see if
that makes any difference?

Regards,
Jeff Watson.

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In reply to a message from The Watsons sent Sun 9 Jun 2002:

Jeff: That has been suggested. If I knew how that it could be
done, I would, just to elimninate that component from the list of
possibilities.

Cheers–
The original message included these comments:

G’day Larry,
Perhaps you could try to lock the fan clutch, so it doesn’t slip, and see if
that makes any difference?
Jeff Watson.


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
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G’day again Larry,

I have a spare SII fan/clutch/water pump in my parts bin so I went and had a
look at the arrangement. You could probably lock the fan clutch by replacing
the 1.25" flat washer that secures the inner part of the clutch to the water
pump shaft with a larger flat washer about 2.00" in diameter which would
bear upon the outer, aluminum (did I spell it right?), part of the clutch.

I replaced the spare clutch, which was on the car originally, with a
reconditioned clutch as I thought the original was no good. It made no
difference, the replacement was exactly the same as the original, which is
more than likely just fine. They both rotate less than a full turn if given
a sharp hand spin. The SII generally holds a normal temperature except in
stop/start traffic with the A/C on, when it slowly creeps up towards the hot
end, though as soon as you get moving the temperature returns to normal.

Maybe you’ll have to get a SIII water pump, fan and fan shroud.

Regards,
Jeff Watson.

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Hi Larry,

I would not worry to much about temperature.

When I bought my car I did following:
On a quite day went on the highway and drove the engine nicely warm.
Did 15 or more full accelleration tests from 60 to 130 slow down and pull up
again.
Then I let the jag idle for some more 15 minuts
Then another 15 acceleration tests.
Then some 5 minutes standing still, engine on.
All with ac on max cooling.

Conclusion: temp gauge went something off the midlle but after some normal
driving went back to the half. So in my opinion the system works properly.
So if it is hot (25/30 degrees C)and your Jag manage this test its ok.
That’s what is is about. The system controlling (meaning: managing the extra
heat) the heat within its surrounding conditions.

And as mentioned earlier the statistic off reading of the individual items
must not be forgotten.
So within a margin don’t worry.

Greetings,
RR
XJ6L 4.2 1975 47K miles
The Netherlands----- Original Message -----
From: “Larry Karpman” lkarpman@attbi.com
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [xj] Fan Clutch - Totally Baffled!

In reply to a message from Larry Karpman sent Fri 7 Jun 2002:

UPDATE:

Ok, I’ve now put on the third new OEM fan clutch, put in the
proper 88C Waxstat, had the drain plug mount resoldered, put in
new coolant, and test driven the car.

Test drove (A/C ON at 65) 1 mile thru residential traffic, no
lights and temp built to 90C. Got on highway for 6 miles (3 miles
each way), and temp was pegged on 91C. 1 mile back to house, with
2 stops lights in residential traffic, temp built to 93-94 when I
pulled in driveway. No aux fans on. Outside temp only 86F and
humid.

So, apparantly my problem remains. Even with a rodded radiator,
new clutch, new 88C thermo, she still is running warm. She ran
great for 2 weeks after I first had this done, so I’m still
baffled. Will check timing, vacuum, sniff tail pipe ASAP for head
gasket leak. I don’t know how I can check the water pump without
pulling it.

I’m hesitant to drive any greater distance, so my question now is
this. I know the kitty isn’t performing to standard, but how bad
off is she? (please don’t say 4 degrees off :slight_smile:

Cheers

The original message included these comments:

As I reported to the list before, my early SIII (same fan and
clutch as the SII - RPM activated) spins for a full 2 seconds on
shutdown, and my temps are to warm again. I am on my THIRD OEM
CLUTCH!


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In addition: when I shut down my V12 today after about 1/2 hr of
idling and revving the fan kept on spinning for about 2 secs, same as
Larry’s. That could mean it’s toast, but it still kept the temp gauge
right where it should be. Now if you thought the XK engine produces
heat, try a V12! The fans are the same. I guess this only proves that
there really is no consistency in these clutches;)–
Arnoud

iMac, therefore I am

http://www.se7en.nl

1973 Daimler Double-Six SWB
1989 Jaguar Sovereign HE

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Mark,

High altitude yes, ritzy no! Cave Creek road N of Hiway 101… and yes, it is cooler up
here due to the slightly higher altitude but more so from the lack of concrete and the
fact that I am 100 meters from “pure desert” and civilization!

JoeOn 9 Jun 2002 at 1:47, Mark Stephenson wrote:

Joe,

I thought you lived in that ritzy, high altitude part of town. I would
have expected it to be only 108 or 110 there.

Mark

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In reply to a message from Arnoud sent Sun 9 Jun 2002:

Arnoud:

Nice input. Good, I’m glad a clutch that acts like mine can do
the job!

We had our Dallas area XJ ‘‘wrench turning’’ session today. Henry
Fok checked my timing, and it is set at 6 degrees BTDC not 4 as
it should. Don’t know how dramatically that effects the temp. He
also found my PS belt way too loose.

Unfortunately on the 40 mile return trip, same as the 40 mile
trek out there, the highway tems are now 96C, and the residential
traffic temps are around 98C. Not good at all.

Soooooo, even after I put in the tested 88C Waxstat, put in a
third OEM fan clutch, and have a freshly rodded radiator, I’m
here :frowning:

I’m haunted by the 2 weeks it all ran great, until ‘‘something’’
decided to fail. I have replaced the clutch put in by the shop,
repalced the thermo put in by them.

I’m going to get a pressure tester and check to see if the
cooling system is holding pressure.

Cheers–
The original message included these comments:

In addition: when I shut down my V12 today after about 1/2 hr of
idling and revving the fan kept on spinning for about 2 secs, same as
Larry’s. That could mean it’s toast, but it still kept the temp gauge
right where it should be. Now if you thought the XK engine produces
heat, try a V12! The fans are the same. I guess this only proves that
there really is no consistency in these clutches )
Arnoud


Larry Karpman '87 SIII VDP (US), '79 SIII XJ6 (US)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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