[xj-s] 6.0L V12 idle woes -- it never ends

Gentlemen:
To the regular listers – apologies – you are probably
tired of hearing from me about my 6.0L V12 idle…

Well, here is a new one. I don’t believe it has been
described/discussed before.

Background – my idle speed on a fully warmed engine in P or
N is ca. 750 rpm. No A/C load. It is not very stable, but
the drop or increase in speed is not terrible – about 50
rpm or less, and I’ve learned I won’t be able to stop the
roll. This seems to be the hallmark of the 6.0L.

However, I get this idle speed only AFTER the engine warms
up and is shut down, and then restarted (warm). If I drive
it and lets say pull at a gas station, switch to P – idle
will be 850-900 rpm.
Engine turned off, then turned on – idle will be 750 rpm.

After that, if I drive off, even for a minute, and then pull
to the side, switch to P – idle will be again 100-150 rpm
higher.

I had not seen this behavior before, and it appears to have
developed slowly over time. It is consistent and I’ve
observed it multiple times.
It is NOT a vacuum leak, throttle plates out of adjustment,
linkage bushes, idle switch, etc. Already checked those.
SAV could not be the culprit as the A/C is off. AAV seems to
operate properly – cold idle is high and then drops
gradually as it warms up.

What am I missing? What could such odd behavior be due to?

Best regards,
Steve–
'95 XJS convertible - V12 6.0L
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If I drive
it and lets say pull at a gas station, switch to P – idle
will be 850-900 rpm.

Two possibilities come to mind:

  1. Sticky throttle. It’s not quite closing all the way when gently
    closed, but will close all the way when quickly released.

  2. Cruise control issues. The cable is adjusted a bit too tightly,
    or a little bit of vacuum is being applied when it shouldn’t be,
    either way applying just enough tension to the throttle that it
    doesn’t close fully.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 18 Sep 2014 at 7:50, sbobev wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 18 Sep 2014:

Kirby:
I considered the return springs, but when I am in park, and
have the 750 rpm idle, I can play with the gas pedal as much
as I want, the idle speed returns to its ‘normal’
The anomalous increase happens only after driving.

I will double check the cruise control, although I doubt it
has anything to do with it. 1) I don’t use it, and 2) the
rod (this is a 6.0L) is not hard to set. In fact, I think I
left it somewhat loose when I was setting the throttle
plates.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

Two possibilities come to mind:

  1. Sticky throttle. It’s not quite closing all the way when gently
    closed, but will close all the way when quickly released.
  2. Cruise control issues. The cable is adjusted a bit too tightly,
    or a little bit of vacuum is being applied when it shouldn’t be,
    either way applying just enough tension to the throttle that it
    doesn’t close fully.


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In reply to a message from sbobev sent Thu 18 Sep 2014:

Hey Steve,

Remember that our throttle from the pedal is a wire in a
sheath…so it pulls the throttle open, but won’t push it closed
by ‘‘jiggling’’ the pedal. Sticking throttle would be my initial
guess too. Second guess is that the AAV is heat soaking from the
manifold after it sits for a while in a warm engine compartment.
Perhaps it’s getting weak and not fully closing at the right
temperature.

These are just guesses…–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Fri 19 Sep 2014:

Hi John:
It is NOT the throttle – this morning, when I parked the
car, it idled at 850 rpm.
I open the hood, looked carefully – the idle switch was in
the correct position, the throttle capstan was in its rest
place.
Repeated open/close did not change the idle speed. If
something was sticky, chances are such exercise will produce
a state where the engine rmps come back to the normal state.

Your heat soak theory and the AAV is interesting – my
limited experience tells me the AAV is more likely to be the
problem. I will take it out and check if it closes all the
way up.

Could there be anything else that I’ve overlooked?

Best regards,
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

Remember that our throttle from the pedal is a wire in a
sheath…so it pulls the throttle open, but won’t push it closed
by ‘‘jiggling’’ the pedal. Sticking throttle would be my initial
guess too. Second guess is that the AAV is heat soaking from the
manifold after it sits for a while in a warm engine compartment.
Perhaps it’s getting weak and not fully closing at the right
temperature.
These are just guesses…


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In reply to a message from sbobev sent Thu 18 Sep 2014:

I read this thread and was going to go AAV, too.

But, along the lines of the heat soak idea…if, say, the
intake manifold or some other component of the intake setup
(balance pipe, balance pipe couplings, etc.) are cracking,
and this crack would be open when cold and would tend to
close up while warm…I suppose it is sending the idle
change in the opposite direction?

A crack that is open, admitting more air would raise the
idle, and the idle would drop as the engine warmed and the
crack closed up.

Anyway, just an idea.

Either way, this sound’s like some sort of vacuum leak
somewhere.

-M–
Mike, 1990 5.3 XJS Conv., 5-speed, SE-ECU, TT Extractors
Lakewood, OH, United States
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In reply to a message from mike90 sent Fri 19 Sep 2014:

Mike’s got some good points…there could be a loose or cracked
vacuum hose within the miles of hoses under the bonnet.

Forgive my nomenclature, but have you checked to see if the air
solenoid valve is either operating at the wrong time or sticking
open? I know that’s not the right name…but I am talking about
the little solenoid valve on the back of the RH intake.

And my final thought is the air pump. Could the low idle be
related to the air pump kicking on?

Like you, I’ve given up trying to fix the roll to the 6.0 idle. It
runs great, and that’s what matters.–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Sat 20 Sep 2014:

John, Mike:
The SAV (supplementary air valve) is out of question – A/C is
off. The SAV provides some additional air to compensate for
the load due to the A/C compressor.
Leaks due to cracks – out of question, I am pretty sure.
Every vacuum hose has been replaced.

My engine will idle at ca 250 rpm when the AAV hole is plugged
(fully warm). If the idle speed is higher, throttle plates
are not set properly (not my case) or there is a leak.
This is a trick I learned from George Balthrop to check for
vacuum leaks. I also have a vacuum/fuel gauges permanently
hooked up.

The behavior has become very systematic and reproducible.
Good idle speed when started from warm. The moment load is
put on, and then removed – idle speed increases and doesn’t
come back down until engine is restated. I think this could be
the Marelli computer messing with the timing (IIRC, it changes
timing every time when the gears are shifted).

Steve–
The original message included these comments:

Mike’s got some good points…there could be a loose or cracked
vacuum hose within the miles of hoses under the bonnet.
Forgive my nomenclature, but have you checked to see if the air
solenoid valve is either operating at the wrong time or sticking
open? I know that’s not the right name…but I am talking about
the little solenoid valve on the back of the RH intake.
And my final thought is the air pump. Could the low idle be
related to the air pump kicking on?
Like you, I’ve given up trying to fix the roll to the 6.0 idle. It
runs great, and that’s what matters.


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The SAV (supplementary air valve) is out of question – A/C is
off. The SAV provides some additional air to compensate for
the load due to the A/C compressor.

You keep saying that. It seems you are unaware that that’s not all
the SAV does. Did they do away with the cat lightoff scheme in the
later cars? I’m betting they did not, they still need to light off
the cats, although I suppose the Marelli retards the timing
electronically rather than disabling the vacuum advance. Still, some
method would be needed to maintain idle. The earlier cars used the
SAV; what do the later cars use?

The behavior has become very systematic and reproducible.
Good idle speed when started from warm. The moment load is
put on, and then removed – idle speed increases and doesn’t
come back down until engine is restated.

Are you trying this with different amounts of time involved? Like,
whether the load is applied after 2 minutes of idling vs. 10 minutes
of idling?

I think this could be
the Marelli computer messing with the timing (IIRC, it changes
timing every time when the gears are shifted).

As I understand it, the Marelli briefly retards the timing when
shifting to smooth the shifts. Other than that, I think it’s just
supposed to operate the way you’d expect, varying advance based on
load and vacuum. Anybody know any better?

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 20 Sep 2014 at 7:22, sbobev wrote:

And my final thought is the air pump. Could the low idle be
related to the air pump kicking on?

That’s a thought – but the air pump kicks off once the engine warms
up. It’s vacuum operated on earlier cars; I dunno about the 6.0.
So, one thing that might be happening is something is FUBAR down
there so that when vacuum is applied to disable the air injection, it
results in a vacuum leak which boosts the idle. I’d presume that
means it also fails miserably to disable the air injection, which in
turn would confuse the oxygen sensors, which would then cause the
engine to run rich?

There’s also the startup timer, right? On US-spec cars it’s supposed
to disable the vacuum advance for 45 seconds after startup. Once the
advance comes on, the idle would rise – but the SAV is supposed to
be disabled at the same time, bringing it back down. So perhaps the
SAV isn’t working at all, the idle has been adjusted as though it IS
working, and then the idle bumps up when the vacuum advance is
enabled.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 20 Sep 2014 at 7:12, CJ95 wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sat 20 Sep 2014:

Kirby:
The engine management for the 6.0L is a different beast and
very few appear to understand it. True, I repeat myself, but
that’s because very few are listening/reading carefully. I am
sorry.

I hate to do it again – the 6.0L does not have a 45 sec
timer. Anti-stall relay is also gone. SAV has no effect on
cold idle (unlike the earlier V12s, where the timer/SAV were
both components of the cold start circuit).

To refresh your memory, please check this topic (one of about
a dozen I’ve posted, hoping that someone who knows the for
the 6.0L will clarify idle, start up, and when and how the ECU
switches from open to closed loop upon cold start).

But this discussion is not related to the current issue. Key
word here is not heat – gasket contraction/expansion does not
explain the findings.

Again – it appears to be related to putting load on the
engine.
All I know is that after driving, in Park or Neutral, fully
warm engine will idle 100 rpm higher than otherwise. Up to 2
minutes playing with it shows to tendency to lower the idle
speed. Similar observation can be made when the engine is
restarted, but the transmission is not engaged – idle will be
normal and will stay that way for up to 2-3 minutes.
Blipping the throttle does nothing to change that, in either
scenario, which, in my mind, clears sticky throttle pot or
plates, lazy returns springs, etc. Again, for reasons I
mentioned already, I do not think I have a vacuum leak and I
am almost certain this is electric/electronic ‘‘effect’’

Best regards,
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

The SAV (supplementary air valve) is out of question – A/C is
off. The SAV provides some additional air to compensate for
the load due to the A/C compressor.
You keep saying that. It seems you are unaware that that’s not all
the SAV does. Did they do away with the cat lightoff scheme in the
later cars? I’m betting they did not, they still need to light off
the cats, although I suppose the Marelli retards the timing
electronically rather than disabling the vacuum advance. Still, some
method would be needed to maintain idle. The earlier cars used the
SAV; what do the later cars use?
The behavior has become very systematic and reproducible.


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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sat 20 Sep 2014:

Kirby:
I am afraid that not all of this applies to the 6.0L.

The hot start fuel pressure boost is vacuum to the FPR being
cut off via a temp switch on the fuel rail, a solenoid and a
delay valve, IIRC. No timer.

I have not had the car idle on me longer than 2-3 minutes for
this reason - adaptive fuel trim - topic we covered almost
exactly 1 year ago

I’ve got a fuel pressure gauge mounted permanently on the rail
– I see the fuel pressure increase upon hot start, but than
it stabilizes to ca. 32-33 psig. Vacuum is also very solid 20
in. Hg.Idle speed is ca. 750 rpm.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?id=1362255765

Playing with the throttle does not make the idle go up.
Only putting the car in gear and then returning to park does.

Steve

PS The secondary air-pump provides air into the exhaust on
cold start, helping the cats light off. It does nothing on
warm engine. Well, there is a periodic check routine for the
O2 sensors, whereby the air-pump pumps air in the exhaust and
the ECU monitors to O2 sensor responses, but I’ve got this
function disabled on my 36CU by Roger Bywater)–
The original message included these comments:

And my final thought is the air pump. Could the low idle be
related to the air pump kicking on?
That’s a thought – but the air pump kicks off once the engine warms
up. It’s vacuum operated on earlier cars; I dunno about the 6.0.
So, one thing that might be happening is something is FUBAR down
there so that when vacuum is applied to disable the air injection, it
results in a vacuum leak which boosts the idle. I’d presume that
means it also fails miserably to disable the air injection, which in
turn would confuse the oxygen sensors, which would then cause the
engine to run rich?
There’s also the startup timer, right? On US-spec cars it’s supposed


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The hot start fuel pressure boost is vacuum to the FPR being
cut off via a temp switch on the fuel rail, a solenoid and a
delay valve, IIRC. No timer.

Gee, I wasn’t talking about the fuel pressure boost at all. Still,
good to know.

Playing with the throttle does not make the idle go up.
Only putting the car in gear and then returning to park does.

Hmmm. Your tranny is electronic, right? Any way to monitor signals
out of it?

Nobody has chimed in to say, “Yeah, my car does that too”, have they?
This must be a really weird problem.

Just outta curiosity, how does the intake manifold vacuum before
shifting into gear compare to after? Exactly the same, a little
higher one or the other?

Is there any way to get any indication what the timing is doing? Can
you put a timing light on it and see if it’s different before and
after shifting into gear?

Can you tell when the car is in open vs. closed loop? Actually,
there might be a possibility there. I presume the O2 sensors are 3-
wire and working properly? Because the issue with the 1-wire was
that they wouldn’t get quite hot enough to work at idle in neutral.
Shifting into gear and applying just that bit of load got them hot
enough and the EFI would go into closed loop. It’d usually come back
out of closed loop when you shifted back into N, though. Why they’d
stay in closed loop from then on, I dunno.

Well, there is a periodic check routine for the
O2 sensors, whereby the air-pump pumps air in the exhaust and
the ECU monitors to O2 sensor responses, but I’ve got this
function disabled on my 36CU by Roger Bywater)

Why was it disabled?

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 21 Sep 2014 at 8:13, sbobev wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 21 Sep 2014:

Kirby:
With the accuracy of my gauge, the vacuum at 750 rmp and 850
rpm is the same.
The fuel pressure is expensive, liquid filled one and there is
no difference there – in the worst possible case, 0.5 psig
which would also mean that the manifold vacuum did not change
much.

The O2-sensors were suspects all along. The reason Mr.
Bywater disabled the periodic hot air injection was the
speculation that this is what causes the rolling idle. It did
not help.

I’ve tried three different brands O2 sensors in 4 years (and
less than 10,000 miles) – no luck.

I cannot tell by just listing to the engine if it is in open
or close loop. But there is a big difference between warm
engine with feedback and without (the O2 sensors disconnected
and CEL displayed). I’ve driven like that at least 300-400
miles in town – slightly worse fuel economy (low double
digits), but the cars feels more enjoyable to drive and the
throttle response is more ‘crisp’. Idle speed increases a bit
(consistent with what I am reporting now) but the engine
appears to be smoother.

I haven’t tried running with the O2 sensors disconnected
recently (since I noticed this new thing with the idle), but I
will. Has been on my to-do list, but I was hopping that
someone what be able to share some ideas.

Steve

PS And yes, the transmission is the 4L80e. There is something
very weird with all that – transmission talking to the
Marerlli ECU talking to the Lucas 36CU, and I am sure I will
find out when I least expect it.–
The original message included these comments:

Nobody has chimed in to say, ‘‘Yeah, my car does that too’’, have they?
This must be a really weird problem.
Just outta curiosity, how does the intake manifold vacuum before
shifting into gear compare to after? Exactly the same, a little
higher one or the other?
Is there any way to get any indication what the timing is doing? Can
you put a timing light on it and see if it’s different before and
after shifting into gear?
Can you tell when the car is in open vs. closed loop? Actually,
there might be a possibility there. I presume the O2 sensors are 3-
wire and working properly? Because the issue with the 1-wire was


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The O2-sensors were suspects all along.

When my O2 sensors were running too cold, the result was an unstable
idle; it romped up and down something fierce. Yours isn’t doing
that. But the systems are different enough that, I suppose, the same
issue could cause a different symptom in your car.

The reason Mr.
Bywater disabled the periodic hot air injection was the
speculation that this is what causes the rolling idle. It did
not help.

Interesting. The rolling idle has a period of every couple of
seconds, does it not? How often would you think that thing would
turn on the air pump to test the O2 sensors? I wouldn’t think it’d
be THAT often.

I’ve tried three different brands O2 sensors in 4 years (and
less than 10,000 miles) – no luck.

No luck on what? The rolling idle, or the shift in idle speed when
you put it in gear?

Does your ECU still have an idle mixture adjustment like the 6CU and
16CU did? Because if so, I’d expect adjusting that to be your best
bet toward correcting that rolling idle.

…but I was hopping that
someone what be able to share some ideas.

OK, I think I may have come up with an idea. As I understand it,
the fuelling maps that are built into these ECU’s concentrate on the
idle and near-idle realm, since it is more difficult to get the
fuelling right in that realm than at the higher power conditions.
Let’s presume that there are several points on the map in the
vicinity of 750-900 rpm. And when you first start the car, it
settles on a point that gives 750 rpm at the idle setting. Then
let’s presume that, when you shift it into gear, the additional load
causes the engine to react, and in reacting it moves to a different
point on the fuelling map – and this point, by virtue of different
fuelling (probably leaner, I think leaner generally speeds up idle)
runs the engine at 800-900 rpm with the exact same idle setting. If
the engine could be moved back to 750 magically without changing the
manifold vacuum or throttle position, it might resort to the original
mapping point and idle at 750 once again – but I dunno how you’d get
it there other than to come UP at it from the starter rather than
down to it.

That would imply that it’s the mapping itself that’s causing this
idle issue. A difference in fuelling at 750 rpm vs. 850 rpm, with
all other variables being equal.

You mentioned that Bywater has been tinkering with your ECU. That
may explain why you’re the only one experiencing this. If Bywater
revised the fuelling maps, perhaps he inadvertently caused this.

I think you can test this theory. Manually adjust the idle speed
up to 900, and I mean 900 when the car is first started. If you can
then put it in gear and take it back out of gear and the engine
resumes running at 900, we’re on the right track. Moving the idle
speed away from these troublesome points on the map cleared it up.
OTOH, if you put it in gear and take it back out of gear and the idle
ends up at 1100, we’re probably barking up the wrong tree here, just
set the idle speed back where it belongs and fuggetaboutit.

I suppose another idea might be to set the idle speed DOWN to
something below 750, like say 600. See if it resumes 600 after
shifting in and out of D. If the troublesome data point is at 750,
presumably the lower idle setting would pull it back down to 750 even
after shifting in and out of D, which means it’d go all the way to
600. So, same test: If the engine resumes 600 after playing with
the shifter, we’re on the right track. If it idles somewhere faster,
like 750-800, the theory gets pitched and we move on.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 21 Sep 2014 at 18:30, sbobev wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 21 Sep 2014:

ECU map and map changes…

You might ask Roger for a chip that is the factor setup, so
that you can A-B the two chips in terms of how the car
responds.

Kirby’s observation is sagacious- the idle/low RPM
condition is the really tricky area of engine control for
these motors.

What is odd is the nature of the problem: it almost seems
as though there is some sort of hysteresis in the throttle
response in terms of return to idle. For a moment, I was
thinking about the MAP sensor, but I also wonder, now,
about the potential for hysteresis in the coolant and air
temperature sensors. The Marelli will also have a coolant
temp sensor… your model may have an air temp sensor, too,
in lieu of the air temp switch.

Those sensors would be easy enough to test; I would replace
all of them with a fixed value resistor set chosen to
replicate warmed up conditions. Then look for your load-
based throttle return idle condition and see if it is the
same.

-M

-M–
Mike, 1990 5.3 XJS Conv., 5-speed, SE-ECU, TT Extractors
Lakewood, OH, United States
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In reply to a message from mike90 sent Mon 22 Sep 2014:

Mike, Kirby:
Thanks for the suggestions. I do have two 36CUs (the
original and the moded). Kirby’s point that my problem is
unique because I am one of the very few 6.0L owners that
runs moded ECU may very well be right on the money.
I will try to find some time to swap ECUs this week

Please note:
The 36CU does NOT have idle adjustment
The 6.0L V12 has only one CTS – both for timing and fueling
– B-bank thermostat housing
The air-temp sensor is just a switch

Well, I’ve checked/replaced all possible sensors in the
engine bay. But since this is a new condition – I’ve got
almost 1500 miles on the car since May and noticed this
‘hysteresis’ about 2 weeks ago – will check again. Have
doubts a CTS can produce this effect though.

Steve–
The original message included these comments:

ECU map and map changes…
You might ask Roger for a chip that is the factor setup, so
that you can A-B the two chips in terms of how the car
responds.
Kirby’s observation is sagacious- the idle/low RPM
condition is the really tricky area of engine control for
these motors.
What is odd is the nature of the problem: it almost seems
as though there is some sort of hysteresis in the throttle
response in terms of return to idle. For a moment, I was
thinking about the MAP sensor, but I also wonder, now,


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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 21 Sep 2014:

Kirby:
No the air pump can not cycle that quickly. It was a wild
guess, but since other markets do not have secondary air
injection, Mr. Bywater suggested we can take the routine
out.

The O2 sensors changeovers did not help with the rolling
idle.
The condition discussed now is fairly new.

Been reading through my earlier (September 2013) posts re:
fuel trimming. I have had ‘chronic idle issues’ for as long
as I’ve had the car. Ny this I mean it does not purr like
some of those barn finds you see on YouTube, that haven’t
run in years, yet, with fresh gas and some help, they start
up right and idle so smooth…

Anyhow, my 6.0L has power, runs well at high speeds, but
nothing I’ve done could improve the idling – except
disconnecting the O2 sensors. That’s not leaner running,
should be richer, correct?

W/o feedback, idle was so much better, albeit a bit higher.
If I understand the function of the O2 sensors, the signal
they provide to the 36CU would be to trim the default map.
Only then, idle was smoother.

A recurring theme in the earlier posts was ‘‘excessive fuel
trim’’, which ought to be O2 sensors. But again, fresh from
the box, top-dollar sensors could not change that.

I think that actually, before I swap the ECUs, I might do
that again – will disconnect the O2 sensors and force open
loop operation at all speeds – let’s see what happens.

Thanks for the interest in the topic.

Steve–
The original message included these comments:

Interesting. The rolling idle has a period of every couple of
seconds, does it not? How often would you think that thing would
turn on the air pump to test the O2 sensors? I wouldn’t think it’d
be THAT often.

I’ve tried three different brands O2 sensors in 4 years (and
less than 10,000 miles) – no luck.
No luck on what? The rolling idle, or the shift in idle speed when
you put it in gear?
Does your ECU still have an idle mixture adjustment like the 6CU and
16CU did? Because if so, I’d expect adjusting that to be your best
bet toward correcting that rolling idle.


'95 XJS convertible - V12 6.0L
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// please trim quoted text to context only

The 6.0L V12 has only one CTS – both for timing and fueling
– B-bank thermostat housing

Interesting. The earlier Marelli cars had a separate CTS in the A
bank thermostat housing for the timing. Interesting that they saw
fit to change that, split both signals off the same sensor.

The air-temp sensor is just a switch

That can’t be right. How does the system compensate for changes in
air temp? Does it simply rely upon the feedback control?

Have
doubts a CTS can produce this effect though.

Yeah, me too. In fact, I have doubts that any of the sensors could
produce it. But we haven’t figured out what COULD produce it yet.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 22 Sep 2014 at 8:20, sbobev wrote:

…nothing I’ve done could improve the idling – except
disconnecting the O2 sensors. That’s not leaner running,
should be richer, correct?

Yeah, should be, and richer is the way to go for a smoother idle.
However, disabling feedback control is also a way to go for a
smoother idle. Which one is at issue here is in question. That’s
why I was asking about an idle mixture adjustment. Since you
apparently don’t have one, I’m wondering how that ECU compensates for
things like normal engine wear.

W/o feedback, idle was so much better, albeit a bit higher.

Higher! Interesting. I’d have expected it to be lower.

If I understand the function of the O2 sensors, the signal
they provide to the 36CU would be to trim the default map.
Only then, idle was smoother.

Can be smoother because it’s running a bit richer, or it can be
smoother because the feedback control isn’t ramping the fuel mixture
up and down. If it’s truly “rolling”, rather than unstable, I’d tend
to lean towards the latter explanation. But that would imply that
the default map is too far from correct, and possibly that the oxygen
sensors aren’t hot enough. Are you sure you’re getting 12V to the
heaters?

A recurring theme in the earlier posts was ‘‘excessive fuel
trim’’, which ought to be O2 sensors. But again, fresh from
the box, top-dollar sensors could not change that.

It could still be excessive fuel trim, but not because of the sensors
being faulty but rather the baseline default map being so far from
optimum.

I think that actually, before I swap the ECUs, I might do
that again – will disconnect the O2 sensors and force open
loop operation at all speeds – let’s see what happens.

Yeah, that might be worth trying.

Actually, it’s sounding like BOTH issues might be the result of
issues with the fuelling map around idle speed. I’ll be waiting to
hear if swapping in the non-modded ECU has any effect.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 22 Sep 2014 at 8:54, sbobev wrote: