[xj-s] D�j� vu - dirt between radiator and A/C condenser

XJ-S
1

A bit of history first: bought my XJ-S in 2003 with only 14k
miles. In 2005 and with around 20k miles on the clock I
found this:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1131124826

that I could not believe for a car with so little miles on
it. I mentioned this photo album link a couple of months ago
when a poster was in doubt if removing the radiator. Maybe
you might think: Luis lives in a 3rd world country, with
very dirty streets and roads. Well yes, we have many unpaved
and dirty roads here, but that is NOT the territory where I
walk my cat. I do it on roads that would not differ much in
cleanliness from what I find when I travel in Europe or the
USA. Besides, searching the photo albums I’ve seen I’m not
the only one here:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1188704175

Nowadays I have 33k on the clock, have been driving the car
for some 10 days after a VERY long siesta of several months.
It is summer here, not strange to have days over 30�C and
even 35�C (mid 90�F). No overheating at all, but it seemed
strange to me that after a drive of only 15 minutes the
electrical fan kept on for several minutes. I did not recall
that to be normal. I also remembered that the coolant was
more the 5 years old, so decided to change it. Following my
own advice, I removed the radiator too. This is what I found
after about 12k miles of the previous pictures:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1328962511

AMAZING! All that dirt hidden behind a perfectly clean oil
radiator and A/C condenser. It is obvious that the dirt does
NOT come from impacts at speed, but is sucked when the car
is standing still with the engine on. No air by-passes the
radiator thanks to foam against the fan shroud. But much air
by-passes the oil cooler and A/C condenser. There is a gap
in between of them, and also a gap to the sides of them and
below the oil cooler. From below is where most of the dirt
and fluff comes from, not because the gap is bigger, but
because it’s where most of the dirt is to be found: on the
floor. Besides, the right side (of the car) is where most of
the dirt is to be found, because it’s where the big fan is.

I’m trying the ‘solution’ with a metallic mosquito net you
can see in the pictures. No idea if it’ll work. Pictures are
from Friday and car hasn’t been driven yet. But I recommend
everybody: if in doubt, remove the radiator!! Especially if
you have a healthy fan clutch or strong electric fans.

Rgds, Luis.–
Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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2

In reply to a message from Luis Gasperini sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Luis,

Do I see your air cleaner inlets below the roll/stabilizer bar on
the left and the right sides? It appears that you do have screens
in them, but it still begs the question of how you manage to keep
all the debris that finds it way to your radiator out of your
inlets without very frequent cleaning? Have you considered drawing
fresh cool air from behind your headlights, or to the left or right
forward of the wheel well shields where the Evap cannister and the
windshield washer fluid reservoir reside - as most others have done?–
lockheed 92 XJS Cpe/97 LT1 Miami FL/ 96 XJS Cv 4.0 Austin TX
Austin, TX, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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3

In reply to a message from Luis Gasperini sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Luis,

Nice set of photos. Hope the netting works for you. These vehicles
sit so low to the ground, it’s not surprizing what gets sucked or
blown into the rads.

I have 1989 Chevy Suburban, sits much higher off the ground, and I
have NEVER had to pull anything apart to clean the rad. Maybe once
a year stick a garden hose with nozzle thru the grill and wash a
few splattered bugs off, but almost NADA road dust/grime/dirt in
the radiator fins.

Good to hear from you again…you were absent for a while.

Dave Faircloth–
The original message included these comments:

Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay

–

Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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4

Luis,

The amount of debris that you have documented here is quite

astounding. I have removed radiators from most of my Jaguars before (not my
XJ-S yet) and have only found a very minor amount of debris. What you have
found after only a short while is amazing. There has to be a reason for
this amount of debris. Do you have family pets (cats or dogs) that spend a
lot of time in your garage?

I wish you luck with your solution.

Regards,

Paul M. Novak

1990 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1990 XJ-S Classic Collection convertible
1987 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1985 XJ6 Vanden Plas (parts)
1984 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1969 E-Type FHC
1957 MK VIII Saloon
Ramona, CA
P.M.Novak7@gmail.com-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xj-s@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xj-s@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf
Of Luis Gasperini
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 5:36 AM
To: xj-s@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xj-s] Déjà vu - dirt between radiator and A/C condenser

A bit of history first: bought my XJ-S in 2003 with only 14k
miles. In 2005 and with around 20k miles on the clock I
found this:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1131124826

that I could not believe for a car with so little miles on
it. I mentioned this photo album link a couple of months ago
when a poster was in doubt if removing the radiator. Maybe
you might think: Luis lives in a 3rd world country, with
very dirty streets and roads. Well yes, we have many unpaved
and dirty roads here, but that is NOT the territory where I
walk my cat. I do it on roads that would not differ much in
cleanliness from what I find when I travel in Europe or the
USA. Besides, searching the photo albums I’ve seen I’m not
the only one here:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1188704175

Nowadays I have 33k on the clock, have been driving the car
for some 10 days after a VERY long siesta of several months.
It is summer here, not strange to have days over 30ºC and
even 35ºC (mid 90ºF). No overheating at all, but it seemed
strange to me that after a drive of only 15 minutes the
electrical fan kept on for several minutes. I did not recall
that to be normal. I also remembered that the coolant was
more the 5 years old, so decided to change it. Following my
own advice, I removed the radiator too. This is what I found
after about 12k miles of the previous pictures:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1328962511

AMAZING! All that dirt hidden behind a perfectly clean oil
radiator and A/C condenser. It is obvious that the dirt does
NOT come from impacts at speed, but is sucked when the car
is standing still with the engine on. No air by-passes the
radiator thanks to foam against the fan shroud. But much air
by-passes the oil cooler and A/C condenser. There is a gap
in between of them, and also a gap to the sides of them and
below the oil cooler. From below is where most of the dirt
and fluff comes from, not because the gap is bigger, but
because it’s where most of the dirt is to be found: on the
floor. Besides, the right side (of the car) is where most of
the dirt is to be found, because it’s where the big fan is.

I’m trying the ‘solution’ with a metallic mosquito net you
can see in the pictures. No idea if it’ll work. Pictures are
from Friday and car hasn’t been driven yet. But I recommend
everybody: if in doubt, remove the radiator!! Especially if
you have a healthy fan clutch or strong electric fans.

Rgds, Luis.

Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay

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5

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Does your car have it’s undertray installed? I’ve had a theory that
driving witout on would make this worse…

Jaguar must have known this to be a problem, as the later cars have
a short condensor that doesn’t go all the way to the bottom of the
radiator. My radiator has never been out, and you can see that
nothing gets between them if you look from below.

Dave
Atlanta 1994 XJS 6.0L–
Penfold99
Atlanta, GA, United States
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6

In reply to a message from lockheed sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Lockheed, you are a very good observer! Yes, it’s air inlets
and have no screens at all. Not my design, just part of the
normal AJ-6 PlusTorque kit setup. I’ve never found too much
dirt in the air filters. These are of the washable foam type
that you moist with oil after cleaning and before
installing. As a matter of fact, I’m 99% convinced that all
that debris on the rad is accumulated while the car is
standing still and acting like a huge vacuum cleaner. That
would be idling and only the left filter would be drawing
air. Will check later the condition of the filters and
report to the forum. Back to the lower air inlets, these
work in addition (and in parallel) to the horns of the air
boxes. Something that gives me tranquility, most especially
should they suck water from a pond and ruin the engine, if
they were the only air inlets.–
The original message included these comments:

Do I see your air cleaner inlets below the roll/stabilizer bar on
the left and the right sides? It appears that you do have screens

–
Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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7

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Good to hear from you too, SD.

Remember that there is also NADA of dust/grime/dirt in the
condenser and oil rad fins that could be washed with a
garden hose in my XJ-S either (first pic). It’s that wicked
dust trap that forms because of the condenser-radiator
sandwich not being air tight and sucking air only from the
front side of it. Somehow dirt can get in but not fall off.–
The original message included these comments:

have NEVER had to pull anything apart to clean the rad. Maybe once
a year stick a garden hose with nozzle thru the grill and wash a
few splattered bugs off, but almost NADA road dust/grime/dirt in
the radiator fins.
Good to hear from you again…you were absent for a while.

–
Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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8

In reply to a message from Penfold99 sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Dave,

I believe I understand the word under-tray in English yet
I’m not 100% sure I get what part you mean. There is a body
part (painted same colour as the car) that holds the black
plastic valance and is immediately behind it. Yes, that part
is in its place.

I have no idea how the facelift cars look like. In mine the
condenser only covers the upper 3/4 ths of the radiator
area. The lower fourth is covered by the oil cooler. It is
not obvious that these two in the front are NOT completely
air tight (in between and around). It looks like that at the
first glance, but they’re not.–
The original message included these comments:

Does your car have it’s undertray installed? I’ve had a theory that
driving witout on would make this worse…

–
Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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9

I have no idea how the facelift cars look like. In mine the
condenser only covers the upper 3/4 ths of the radiator
area. The lower fourth is covered by the oil cooler. It is
not obvious that these two in the front are NOT completely
air tight (in between and around). It looks like that at the
first glance, but they’re not.

When I advise people to seal the air path up with foam, I don’t mean
just the radiator. I mean the condenser and oil cooler as well.
Foam needs to surround these items so air must go through, not
around. And I recommend jamming a 1/2" strip of weatherstripping in
that gap between condenser and oil cooler – clearly visible in one
of your excellent pics – to make sure air doesn’t sneak through
there, either.

I also have been recommending for years that people AVOID buying
those high-capacity radiator cores with lots of rows and lots of
fins. They just plug up with debris that much more quickly. If
there was an option to get FEWER fins, bigger gaps, easier to blow
the dirt out of, that’d be the way to go. Capacity when clean isn’t
the problem with the Jaguar XJ-S radiator, it’s keeping it clean.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn 13 Feb 2012 at 2:06, Luis Gasperini wrote:

10

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Mon 13 Feb 2012:

Kirbert,

I considered the possibility of trying to seal the cooler
sandwich (as I call it), yet believe it is easier said than
done. Besides, if fluff and dirt was going to accumulate IN
FRONT of this sandwich in future, it seems easier to replace
a cheap net without major dis-assembly than to deal with an
outside clogged oil cooler and A/C condenser. Anyway, time
will tell if my netting will be successful.

BTW, did you miss my comment on the different connecting
link types for chains in the V-12 forum?

Kind rgds, Luis.–
The original message included these comments:

When I advise people to seal the air path up with foam, I don’t mean
just the radiator. I mean the condenser and oil cooler as well.
Foam needs to surround these items so air must go through, not
around. And I recommend jamming a 1/2’’ strip of weatherstripping in

–
Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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11

Luis; a friend has had good results using the elements from the home
forced air heating systems. Large open weave fibre of some kind in a
cardboard frame, cheap and readily available here for a few $'s in any
hardware store. He cuts the element out and puts it in front of the rad.
core. He claims it keeps his underhood area cleaner also.

Griff
'86 XJ-SC. '97 XJ6R

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12

In reply to a message from Luis Gasperini sent Mon 13 Feb 2012:

Hi Luis:
As a newbie, I follow this forum with a great interest.
I don’t know enough about the difference in the pre face-
lift set-up compared to the latest 6.0L V12s, but as you can
see from my album, with close to 90K on the clock and after
17 years of use, my radiator has a fraction of the debris
you’ve got in a much, much shorter period

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1329069819

Perhaps someone can point to the design change that makes
this huge difference.

For the record, I did not have a cooling problem and I
pooled the radiator out for different reasons – convenience
– over the winter I am replacing the radiator hoses, the T-
stats, all belts, the fan clutch and the tension plug (with
an aluminum one). The project also involved new plugs and
cam-cover gaskets.
I am doing all of this as a new owner catching up with some
long-overdue maintenance work. Was expecting a horror story
(having read many posts on the V12 cooling system), but was
pleasantly surprised to find just regular signs of age…

Best regards,
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

I have no idea how the facelift cars look like. In mine the
condenser only covers the upper 3/4 ths of the radiator
area. The lower fourth is covered by the oil cooler. It is
not obvious that these two in the front are NOT completely
air tight (in between and around). It looks like that at the
first glance, but they’re not.

–
'95 XJS V12 6.0L, saphire/tan
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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