[xj-s] How many folks are putting 'regular' in their 4.0L tanks?

I’ve got a 96 XJS convertible with the 4.0L engine. Automatic
tranny. Now!!! The sign ON the gas cap says premium. However
the prior owner says, ‘‘don’t have to. I burn regular unleaded’’ So
I did, and have been since first part of April. But I’m wondering,
what I’'m doing to the engine, buring regular unleaded???
I’d appreciate the comments from those ‘‘in the know’’/??? Thanks.
Phil & Wendy Singleton–
former owner XK140MC fixed head coupe
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In reply to a message from Rile sent Sat 3 May 2008:

Although I Have a V12 and have been wondering about the
same. An acquaintance has been using regular unleaded in his
4.0ltr without any trouble for quite some time now.
from what I have heard, if you put in a an octane rating
less than for which the engine is made for, you will have
knock in the engine.

Taiyab M–
The original message included these comments:

the prior owner says, ‘‘don’t have to. I burn regular unleaded’’ So


85 XJ Vandenplas V12
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from LeaperV12 sent Sat 3 May 2008:

On engines with modern (mid to late - 80’s?) PCM/ECM control, knock
sensors are used to control engine knock. They will automatically
sense engine knock and will retard the ignition timing sufficiently
to eliminate the knock. Therefore, the engine is protected from
damage. There is no limit to the amount of time that you can use
lower octane fuel. The timing will stay retarded until the octane
of the fuel is increased and then the timing will advance
accordingly. This happens because the PCM/ECM does attempt to use
the maximum amount of timing allowed by the map subject to input
from the knock sensor.

That being said, there is some loss of power and fuel economy going
from a higher octane fuel to a lower octane fuel because of the
timing being retarded by the knock sensor. The manufacturer’s fuel
recommendation is based on getting the most power and economy (EPA
mpg) by using the higher octane fuel. As always, there is a trade
off - by using the higher octane fuel, you will get some additional
performance (probably measureable only at the drag strip), and some
additional efficiency. But, will the additional efficiency offset
the higher cost of the fuel? Probably not, the lowest cost per
mile will probably come from the lower octane fuel unless the cost
differential between the higher octane fuel and the lower octane
fuel is very low. You do the math for what you want or need.–
lockheed
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In reply to a message from LeaperV12 sent Sat 3 May 2008:

As a follow up, you need to determine if your engine computer does
use a knock sensor. I don’t recall that my wife’s 89 V12 had a
knock sensor. Most other manufacturers had been using them since
the early to mid 80’s.–
lockheed
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In reply to a message from lockheed sent Sat 3 May 2008:

Exactly what LOCKHEED said. I learned this from a GM Tech, and
haven’t used Premium fuel since…that was 8 years ago…

‘‘As a follow up, you need to determine if your engine computer does
use a knock sensor.’’–
1977 XJ6C , 1988 XJ-S H&E
skaneateles, ny, United States
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In reply to a message from 345 DeSoto sent Sat 3 May 2008:

Ahhhh, better sleeping at nights for the responses. Being a newby
to the XJS series, 4.0L engine, my sincere appreciation for your
taking the time to respond. This is a great site, and the
responders are great!!!
Phil Singleton
96 XJS 2+2 convertible w/4.0L
Roseburg Oregon/Surprise AZ–
The original message included these comments:

haven’t used Premium fuel since…that was 8 years ago…


former owner XK140MC fixed head coupe
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What Lockheed said about Engine Management Systems that include knock
sensors IS correct. However, NO Jaguar Engine Management System
incorporated knock sensors UNTIL the 1995 AJ16 engine (4.0L with coil
on plug). The V12, in 5.3L and 6.0L form did NOT ever use knock
sensors, and the 4.0L AJ6 engine used through 1994 did NOT have knock
sensors.

So, unless you have an AJ16 6-cylinder with coil on plug, 1995 through
1997 in the XJ-S and X300, then you CANNOT expect the engine management
system to change spark advance to prevent knocking.

That said, your 1988 V-12 should run just fine on 87 AKI/91 RON
unleaded regular. The fuel specification in the Drivers Handbook for
that model is 87 AKI or 91 RON unleaded regular. Unless you have the
ignition advanced more than the specified 18 degrees BTDC @ 3,000 RPM,
have a lot of carbon buildup, have your engine running too hot, have
vacuum or centrifugal advance units that are not working properly,
etc., you should get proper performance without knock using 87 AKI as
labeled on the pumps in the US.

87 AKI regular is all I have ever used in either my 85 or 89 V-12s, and
all I’ve ever used in my XJ40 with a 3.6 AJ6 engine (NONE of which have
knock sensors :wink:

George Balthrop, Clifton, VA USA
85 & 89 XJ-S Coupes; 89 XJ40 VDP-----Original Message-----
From: 345 DeSoto tdefoster@aol.com

Exactly what LOCKHEED said. I learned this from a GM Tech, and
haven’t used Premium fuel since…that was 8 years ago…

‘‘As a follow up, you need to determine if your engine computer does
use a knock sensor.’’


1977 XJ6C , 1988 XJ-S H&E

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In reply to a message from gbalthropxjs@aol.com sent Sat 3 May 2008:

‘‘That said, your 1988 V-12 should run just fine on 87 AKI/91 RON
unleaded regular…’’

George,
THANK you for your Post! I was refering to my Northstar
Cadillac however, you have just saved me close to 30 cents a gallon
in fuel costs! I HAD been running Premium in my '88 V-12
H&E…until this very moment. Knowing that it will run fine on 87
regular is a GREAT relief, fuel prices being what they are. Thanks
again…–
1977 XJ6C , 1988 XJ-S H&E
skaneateles, ny, United States
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Just remember that if the knocks sensors “hear” knocking or pinging, you’ll
lose performance and fuel economy due to retarded timing. Probably not a
concern in gentle daily driving, but…

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR
1990 T-Bird SC

THANK you for your Post! I was refering to my Northstar
Cadillac however, you have just saved me close to 30 cents a gallon
in fuel costs!

// please trim quoted text to context onlyFrom: “345 DeSoto” tdefoster@aol.com

In reply to a message from Rile sent Sat 3 May 2008:

Food for thought, after talking to many mechanics that do total
teardowns on motors, there is some benefit to burning high-test gas
as far as keeping your engine clean. All depends on your outlook
for the long-life of your Kitty. You can run your car and never
change your oil, just add it when needed, but is that how you want
to treat your motor ?–
The original message included these comments:

I’ve got a 96 XJS convertible with the 4.0L engine. Automatic
tranny. Now!!! The sign ON the gas cap says premium. However
the prior owner says, ‘‘don’t have to. I burn regular unleaded’’ So
I did, and have been since first part of April. But I’m wondering,
what I’'m doing to the engine, buring regular unleaded???


Power
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In reply to a message from Power sent Sat 3 May 2008:

Thanks for a great question and great replies.
I have a '92 4.0L and if I don’t put in premium fuel it runs bad.
Is this just my imagination or do I have other issues? I
get ‘‘throttle hesitations’’.
D. Smith
akm190–
The original message included these comments:

I did, and have been since first part of April. But I’m wondering,
what I’'m doing to the engine, buring regular unleaded???


'92 XJS 4.0L
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Perhaps the best way of looking at it is: If your 5.3L V-12 will NOT
run and perform properly on 87 AKI regular, WITHOUT knocking or
pinging, then you probably have an engine/fuelling problem that needs
attention, and simply using higher octane fuel is NOT addressing that
problem.

The only exception I can think of for that would be when someone with
the Lucas CEI ignition wants to get better power by advancing the
ignition more than the spec 18 degrees BTDC at 3,000 RPM, and uses
higher octane fuel to allow him to do that without knock/ping. You can
advance the timing ~ 1.5 - 2.0 degrees for every additional increase in
octane number (at least in cold/cool weather, and “all other things
being equal”), but there are so many factors involved (air temperature,
coolant temperature, compression ratio, carbon deposits, plug
condition, etc. that all other things are rarely equal :wink:

Roger Bywater has posted several detailed articles identifying many of
the factors that affect knock/ping. Perhaps the fact he cites that
causes most concern is:

“Aural knock detection (even in a laboratory environment)
results in a rating of about 2 octane numbers less than by
instrument detection. Knock is only audible when it creates shock
waves within the range of frequencies that the human ear can detect
and of sufficient magnitude to be heard above competing sounds.”

In stop and go traffic, on a 95F+ day, with the air conditioner on,
radio blaring, temp gauge at or above the top of the N, months since
you used injector cleaner or blew out the carbon with high revs, you
might well have knock that you don’t notice, at least at low revs.
Other things such as bad vacuum or centrifugal advance units,
improperly timed ignition, full-load enrichment switches not working
properly, etc. can also contribute to knock/detonation and engine
damage.

So there is no simple answer to the issue. One should be particularly
alert to any knock problems in very hot weather, with high air and
coolant temp conditions, and where carbon buildups may have occurred
from repeated low RPM/short distance driving. You may have to use
higher octane fuel under such conditions, even if all the other issues
such as timing, full-load, etc. have been properly sorted and properly
adjusted.

George Balthrop, Clifton, VA USA
85 & 89 XJ-S Coupes; 89 XJ40 VDP-----Original Message-----
From: 345 DeSoto tdefoster@aol.com

I HAD been running Premium in my '88 V-12
H&E…until this very moment. Knowing that it will run fine on 87
regular is a GREAT relief, fuel prices being what they are. Thanks
again…

1977 XJ6C , 1988 XJ-S H&E

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Not that I’m the resident expert on gasoline but I’d have to think that that
would have more to do with the detergent additives than octane rating. I’m
pretty sure that high quality gasolines have detergent content even if 87
octane.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR
1990 T-Bird SC

Food for thought, after talking to many mechanics that do total
teardowns on motors, there is some benefit to burning high-test gas
as far as keeping your engine clean. All depends on your outlook
for the long-life of your Kitty.

// please trim quoted text to context onlyFrom: “Power” power2125@roadrunner.com

Doug Dwyer wrote:

Just remember that if the knocks sensors “hear” knocking or pinging,
you’ll lose performance and fuel economy due to retarded timing.
Probably not a concern in gentle daily driving, but…

Quite the contrary, it’s in gentle daily driving where this is a
major factor! The maximum advance occurs at light throttle, and
retarding at regular cruise speeds will be a disaster for fuel
economy. My '83, when I used lousy gas, would knock at cruise
throttle but would not knock at either idle or full throttle.

– Kirbert

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‘‘That said, your 1988 V-12 should run just fine on 87 AKI/91 RON
unleaded regular…’’

I’d disagree with that. My '83 w/ 11.5 compression and Lucas CEI
ignition would knock on regular. It would sometimes run OK on mid-
grade, sometimes not, so I just ran it on premium all the time.

Now, if the '88 has Marelli ignition, perhaps the timing maps are a
bit different. But the Marelli also has a jumper for using lousy
gas. Several owners will confirm that, given the choice between
running with the jumper in place on premium or with the jumper
removed on regular, you should always choose to run on premium. The
performance and fuel economy lost with the jumper pulled means it is
only to be used when you accidentally get a tank of bad gas.

– Kirbert

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lockheed wrote:

As a follow up, you need to determine if your engine computer does use
a knock sensor.

Here’s an oddity: My 2002.5 Mazda Proteg�5 supposedly has a knock
sensor, although I dunno where it is or what it looks like. The
Owner’s Manual says to use regular fuel. What is the knock sensor
for, then? So I ran a couple of tanks of premium through it to see
if either performance or fuel economy would change. Neither did.

I dunno why anyone would fit an engine with a knock sensor when the
engine runs the same on regular as it does on premium.

– Kirbert

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Ahhhh. Good catch, Kirby :slight_smile:

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR
1990 T-Bird SC

Quite the contrary, it’s in gentle daily driving where this is a
major factor! The maximum advance occurs at light throttle, and
retarding at regular cruise speeds will be a disaster for fuel
economy.

Doug Dwyer wrote:

Just remember that if the knocks sensors “hear” knocking or pinging,
you’ll lose performance and fuel economy due to retarded timing.
Probably not a concern in gentle daily driving, but…

// please trim quoted text to context onlyFrom: “Kirbert” palmk@nettally.com

Does anyone know where I can get one of these jumpers? Mine was missing
when I bought the car.

Rendy
90 XJS Coupe 5.3L V12

Now, if the '88 has Marelli ignition, perhaps the timing maps are a
bit different. But the Marelli also has a jumper for using lousy
gas.

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Hi Kirby,

I understand why you would believe that higher octane is required from
your personal experience with your 83 model, but I can assure you that
the “Drivers Handbook” for my 89 model (Lucas CEI – change to Marelli
was in mid-89 model year run), and my “XJ-S H.E. Handbook” BOTH specify
87 AKI regular unleaded. The 85 Handbook weasels it a bit and states:
“You should use unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of at least 87.”

As previously stated, 87 AKI regular is the ONLY fuel I have ever used
in either of mine, and I have never heard either one knock or ping
under any conditions, EXCEPT on the one occasion, about 15 years ago,
when my 85 blew a coolant hose in city traffic on a hot summer day, and
it took me about 30 seconds to get to a spot out of traffic. The temp
gauge went about 1/3 of the way from the N to the H, and that caused
some slight knock for several seconds before shutdown.

No engine damage occurred, and 15 years later that engine has never
even had the cam covers removed. I must add that I have tested and/or
rebuilt my distributor vacuum and centrifugal advance mechanisms,
regularly check timing at 3k RPM and idle, with and without the vacuum
advance connected (idle speed), to make sure they continue to work
properly, use injector/intake cleaner every 3 to 6 months, regularly
accelerate to 6k RPM in 1st gear to blow out carbon, and otherwise
drive mine fairly hard to prevent carbon buildup, even though my normal
commute is ~ 15 minutes each way which is a common cause of carbon
buildup (short trips at low RPM). At least 5 minutes of that 15 minute
commute I am going ~ 60 MPH, so it isn’t “lugging” too badly all the
time.

The reason I posted back with all the qualifications and explanations,
is that anyone else’s mileage may vary from my own, and as Roger
Bywater states in his discussion, perhaps the single biggest variable
is how much carbon buildup has occurred in a particular engine, which
can’t be assessed by any reliable means I know of short of removing a
head (unless a scope exam might produce some accurate findings)?

For those interested in a discussion of the variables related to knock,
ping or detonation, I would suggest reading the following post by Roger
Bywater in the archives, or the entire thread, which I believes also
contains a post from Kirby :wink:

George Balthrop, Clifton, VA USA
85 & 89 XJ-S Coupes; 89 XJ40 VDP-----Original Message-----
From: Kirbert palmk@nettally.com

‘‘That said, your 1988 V-12 should run just fine on 87 AKI/91 RON
unleaded regular…’’

I’d disagree with that. My '83 w/ 11.5 compression and Lucas CEI
ignition would knock on regular. It would sometimes run OK on mid-
grade, sometimes not, so I just ran it on premium all the time.

Now, if the '88 has Marelli ignition, perhaps the timing maps are a
bit different. But the Marelli also has a jumper for using lousy
gas. Several owners will confirm that, given the choice between
running with the jumper in place on premium or with the jumper
removed on regular, you should always choose to run on premium. The
performance and fuel economy lost with the jumper pulled means it is
only to be used when you accidentally get a tank of bad gas.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Rile sent Sat 3 May 2008:

In our area the difference in cost between 87 and 91 octane ia less
than 20 cents. If the fuel tank were totally empty and I had to put
in 20 gallons the net cost to me would be an additional $4.00. I
personally prefer to go with the manufacturers recommendations.

In today’s newspaper reports Chevron earned the biggest first
quarter profit ever $5.17 billion, Exon/Mobil $10.9 billion, Shell
$9.08 billion and BP $7.6 billion. Now, don’t I feel wonderful
about helping these ‘‘poor, innocent’’ poverty stricken companies’’ by
paying the additional 20 cents per gallon. I think it should be
called excess ‘‘rip off’’ rather than profit!–
The original message included these comments:

I’ve got a 96 XJS convertible with the 4.0L engine. Automatic


Leerunr
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