[xj] Transmission ID, stoneguards, and the knocking

Hello XJ6 Aficionados,

Sigh. Well, there has been this weird knocking sound
emanating from the 1987 XJ6 series III after it warms up
since I purchased it 2 months ago. At first we thought it
was the engine. Fortunately, the tappet guards are there
and we think we have ruled that out. But today we looked
underneath the XJ6 and noticed two big holes that must be
for stoneguards (see photos in link below) in the
transmission. You can see the torque converter spinning
through the open holes when the car is running, which is
disconcerting.

So, I flipped through the parts manual and saw the Borg
Warner appears to have only one stoneguard hole at the
bottom, instead of two. So, can anyone recognize what type
of transmission this might be with 2 holes? I’m guessing
it needs some stoneguards but without knowing the type,
ordering those parts might be tricky. Not having the
service records for the vehicle is less than desirable!

As for the noise, in case anyone has any ideas, it is
rhythmic and its speed is tied to the RPMs. When a load is
put on it is duller and when the load off you can still
hear it but it is clanky. So, today it seemed like the
noise might be emanating from closer to the torque
converter area. After doing some internet research, I
think the most likely candidate might be a loose flywheel,
but open to suggestions!

Here is my list of things to do for the XJ6:

  • Resolve knocking sound
  • Fix exhaust leak near exhaust manifold
  • Drain the gas tanks (and find a gas tank plug for the
    side that is missing one)
  • Figure out why wipers work on high but no other speed and
    won’t park
  • Cruise control (bought a new bellow but the old one looks
    fine)
  • Replace a few bushings once the new poly kit arrives
  • Window are slowwwww (hopefully just cleaning solenoids)
  • Passenger rear door lock attached uselessly
  • Passenger front door won’t unlock with the rest of the
    auto lock/unlock
  • Minor paint touchups
  • Minor driver’s seat repair before it gets worse
  • The left side passenger door light comes on only when
    driver side door open…

Looks like a busy summer!

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The catalog I have shows the same part number stonguard for both the BW65
and BW66 transmission, with 2 required for the BW65 and 1 required for the
BW66.

I think this is just a catalog error. I’m nearly positive that both types
use two stoneguards and your car has the typical, standard issue BW66

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Pacific Northwest USA
1995 XJRFrom: “jadedcompass” jadedcompass@gmail.com

But today we looked
underneath the XJ6 and noticed two big holes that must be
for stoneguards (see photos in link below) in the
transmission. You can see the torque converter spinning
through the open holes when the car is running, which is
disconcerting.

So, I flipped through the parts manual and saw the Borg
Warner appears to have only one stoneguard hole at the
bottom, instead of two. So, can anyone recognize what type
of transmission this might be with 2 holes?

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In reply to a message from jadedcompass sent Thu 3 Apr 2014:

I have a pair of the plastic stone guards on the bell
housing of my car, so two holes is correct. I can’t possibly
imagine a loose flywheel being the culprit for your knocking
sound, but without being there in person to hear it, I can’t
offer anything other than speculation. You might want to
check the end-float on your crankshaft. I you have a worn
thrust bearing you might get the knocking that you are
hearing. Piston slap generally happens on a cold engine and
goes away with warming up, not the other way around as your
sound is described.–
Tom Hishon, 69 E-type 2+2, 69 E-type OTS, 85 XJ6, '03 X-type
Wasilla, Alaska, United States
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In reply to a message from jadedcompass sent Thu 3 Apr 2014:

I have a similar noise on my xj6 SIII; another member on this
forum suggested it might be ‘‘flexplate’’ chatter…I’m not sure
what that is. This summer I’m going to try to figure it out
and fix it. This may be your problem…something for you to
think about.–
The original message included these comments:

Sigh. Well, there has been this weird knocking sound
emanating from the 1987 XJ6 series III after it warms up
since I purchased it 2 months ago. At first we thought it
was the engine. Fortunately, the tappet guards are there
As for the noise, in case anyone has any ideas, it is
rhythmic and its speed is tied to the RPMs. When a load is
put on it is duller and when the load off you can still
hear it but it is clanky. So, today it seemed like the
noise might be emanating from closer to the torque
converter area. After doing some internet research, I
think the most likely candidate might be a loose flywheel,


Daphne
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Loose flexplate rivets, a somewhat common condition, can result in an odd
jingle or ringing noise…which might be described as “chatter” if the
looseness is severe enough. Some have met with success by ‘banging their
rivets’…hammering the rivets down to tighten 'em up a bit. It’s in the
archives.

A broken flexplate can create a knocking noise.

Loose flexplate-to-torque converter bolts can set up quite a clattering or
chattering noise as well.

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Pacific Northwest USA
1995 XJRFrom: “Daphne” jhndilley@yahoo.com

I have a similar noise on my xj6 SIII; another member on this
forum suggested it might be ‘‘flexplate’’ chatter…I’m not sure
what that is.

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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Fri 4 Apr 2014:

Thanks for the replies. I will look around for the proper
stoneguards then!

I took it to an experienced mechanic today to get an
estimate for the knocking, and he told me to top off the
transmission fluid (we checked it cold the other day and
its fine but when running, it seems to be a little low).
So, he didn’t think that would fix it but he does think it
was emanating from the transmission. One can surmise that
the previous owner took it in to have it checked and that’s
why the stoneguards are both missing. Anyway, the mechanic
thinks it is a transmission problem, actually, so may have
a rebuild in its future, though its still running fine
now. The closest place to me is either someone in Salt
Lake or the jag specialist I found online in Boise.

In other news, I found that my cold start problem is
exactly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RADE9JMdz40
Although it doesn’t look like he ever solved it before his
engine died. Anyone else experience this?–
Garage: 1987 XJ6 Series III
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Fri 4 Apr 2014:

Thanks for the replies. I will look around for the proper
stoneguards then!

I took it to an experienced mechanic today to get an
estimate for the knocking, and he told me to top off the
transmission fluid (we checked it cold the other day and
its fine but when running, it seems to be a little low).

Point is that the transmission fluid level should be checked with the engine
running - passing lever through all positions before measuring…

…but low fluid level will not cause knocking sounds in the transmission,
only shift faults…

Are you sure the sounds come from inside the transmission - sound sources
are very difficut to locate, as the sound travels odd paths. Sure that the
transmission/engine is not moving about causing exhaust or whatever parts
banging into body metal. Simple lack of clearance due to something loose
will bang about depending on various factors…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

So, he didn’t think that would fix it but he does think it
was emanating from the transmission. One can surmise that
the previous owner took it in to have it checked and that’s
why the stoneguards are both missing. Anyway, the mechanic
thinks it is a transmission problem, actually, so may have
a rebuild in its future, though its still running fine
now. The closest place to me is either someone in Salt
Lake or the jag specialist I found online in Boise.-----Original Message-----
From: jadedcompass
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2014 2:58 PM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] Transmission ID, stoneguards, and the knocking…

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In other news, I found that my cold start problem is
exactly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RADE9JMdz40
Although it doesn’t look like he ever solved it before his
engine died. Anyone else experience this?

No, Jade - but the video was very descriptive…:slight_smile:

Firstly, your fuel pump should not be running with the ignition key to ‘run’
(position 2). This means that the AFM or related wiring has been tampered
with, deliberately or inadvertently to make the punmp run in this key
position. Which normally has no consequence for starting and running - but
has a positive side effect in your case…:slight_smile:

The wire in question is likely the black/white going from coil neg,
through the diode pack (just as a connection point) to the ECU. As you
‘make’ and ‘break’ the connection as shown the ECU triggers the injectors -
it does so, once, whenever the ign is turned ‘on’.

Repeated make/brake, as you did, triggers your injectors each time and as
the pump is running and fuel rail pressurized fuel is repeatedly injected.
In short, it primes the engine with extra fuel - which is necessary; but is
the job of the cold start injector with the engine cold. Which in your case
likely does not work as it should - with the engine warm, as it is after the
first start of the day. The CSI is passive with the engine warm - extra fuel
is not required…

This is a tad more than pure speculation, but to crudely test the theory;
there is no reaction to the wire manipulation with ign ‘off’. Nor is it with
ign ‘on’, but with the coil pos wire disconnected. You can also verify that
the clicking sound during wire manipulation comes from the injectors -
confirming that the wire is most likely an ECU connection…

So your likely problem is a non-functioning CSI. To test; disconnect the CSI
and place a test lamp across the wires on the connector. Set gear lever to
‘R’ (to prevent cranking) and turn, and hold(!), key to ‘crank’ - the lamp
should light for the prescribed time related to engine temperature.
Typically 3,5 seconds at +10C (+50F) - above 35C there is no light. This is
a ‘one-shot’ test - you have to wait some 10 - 20 minutes for the TT (which
is the timer) to reset before retiming…

If the ‘light-up’ is reasonably correct in time the TT is OK and the fault
is most likely a clogged CSI…

Nominally, an engine may start cold without the CSI - but it depends on
actual engine temp and how fat the fuelling is set. As the AFM, or at least
the reed switch inside, might have been tampered with, your fuelling may be
too lean for cold start without the CSI…

Ironically, if the AFM reed switch worked as intended, the fuel pump would
not run with ign to ‘run’, and the rail fuel pressure might have bled off
during the night - triggering the injectors with the wire would operate in
vain, no fuel could be delivered with no rail pressure…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)-----Original Message-----
From: jadedcompass
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2014 2:58 PM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] Transmission ID, stoneguards, and the knocking…

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 5 Apr 2014:

Yes, it appears to be the cold starter. Thanks for the
info on testing it. Not even a dribble when trying to
crank it. So, a new one has been ordered although the
cheapest I could find after some intense internet shopping
was $100. Dang! Expensive little guy.

I will report back on the verdict when it comes in.

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 5 Apr 2014:

Yes, it appears to be the cold starter. Thanks for the
info on testing it. Not even a dribble when trying to
crank it. So, a new one has been ordered although the
cheapest I could find after some intense internet shopping
was $100. Dang! Expensive little guy.

Principally, Ginger - the CIS itself can be cleaned, it’s a plain
injector…

…but also; it is important to verify, as described, that the Thermotimer
(TT) works to spec. If it fails, ground may not be applied to the CIS - and
it won’t spray. Also, the continuity of the CSI coil can be verified by
ohming - and if ‘break’ the CSI must of course be changed. Applying 12V to
one pin and ground on the other - the CSI should click…

In ‘crank’ power is applied to one pin on the CSI by the white/yellow
cranking circuit - and to one pin on the TT. The TT provides ground tor the
CSI, and a heating coil in the TT warms up its bimetallic spring - braking
CSI ground after the prescribed time…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

I will report back on the verdict when it comes in.-----Original Message-----
From: jadedcompass
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 1:35 PM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] Transmission ID, stoneguards, and the knocking…

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 7 Apr 2014:

Frank,

We checked the voltage at the CSI lead while cranking the
engine with the vehicle in reverse (so the vehicle would
not actually crank but power was sent to the CSI). The
lead registered voltage around 3 volts and it dropped over
about 3-5 seconds. We had no way to know what the voltage
should be. Since it was getting power we assumed the TT
was working. We then took out the CSI and cranked the
engine again (later so the TT could reset) and the CSI
sprayed no fuel, not even a drip.

We could take the CSI out and hook it up to a 12V battery
to listen for clicking, but it would depend on how much
voltage it is supposed to get.

Thanks,

Ginger–
Garage: 1987 XJ6 Series III
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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 7 Apr 2014:

Frank,

We checked the voltage at the CSI lead while cranking the
engine with the vehicle in reverse (so the vehicle would
not actually crank but power was sent to the CSI). The
lead registered voltage around 3 volts and it dropped over
about 3-5 seconds. We had no way to know what the voltage
should be. Since it was getting power we assumed the TT
was working. We then took out the CSI and cranked the
engine again (later so the TT could reset) and the CSI
sprayed no fuel, not even a drip.

We could take the CSI out and hook it up to a 12V battery
to listen for clicking, but it would depend on how much
voltage it is supposed to get.

It’s fed 12 V from the cranking circuit, Ginger, grounded through the TT -
so 12V is OK…

Voltage checks depends on connections; measuring voltage over the CSI
connector (disconnected) you should read 12V - dropping to zero after TT
cut-of time. Which is why a test lamp, so connected, is used to test the TT
timing - though a voltmeter works as well. 3V is unlikely to operate the CSI
properly

To illustrate, disconnect TT and measure voltage over the two wires on the
connector. In ‘crank’ you should read OV - but each wire tested to ground
should show 12V…:slight_smile:

Check CSI with 12V - exercise and cleaning may revive it, and check
continuity over the pins on the CSI. But spray it should - and I assume the
the pump was running during the test…?

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)-----Original Message-----
From: jadedcompass
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 3:13 PM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] Transmission ID, stoneguards, and the knocking…

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Wed 9 Apr 2014:

Hi guys,

Here’s an update on the problems I posted before. I took my Jag
over to Idaho to have them look at it since I was concerned it was
a major transmission overhaul. Vintage jag reports that there were
actually 3 problems - the crankshaft was overtightened and the
flywheel had cracked, there was an untightened bolt on the torque
converter, and a bushing on the oil pump in the transmission had
worn out. So, happily, they fixed all of those.

Also, Frank, your instincts were good - the TT was the fault of our
slow starting. Unfortunately, when they replaced the TT, they
found another problem it was masking. There is a rod bearing that
is banging, so they are going to try to replace it but there is
some metal in the oil, and so he’s concerned we may have to do an
engine overhaul, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ::sigh::
well, at least she’s almost back in top notch order. Here’s hoping
the engine will last awhile longer!–
Garage: 1987 XJ6 Series III
Helena, MT, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from jadedcompass sent Fri 23 May 2014:

Oh and thanks again to all that have been helping me slowly weed
through these initial jag probs!

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Wed 9 Apr 2014:

Hi guys,

Here’s an update on the problems I posted before. I took my Jag
over to Idaho to have them look at it since I was concerned it was
a major transmission overhaul. Vintage jag reports that there were
actually 3 problems - the crankshaft was overtightened and the
flywheel had cracked, there was an untightened bolt on the torque
converter, and a bushing on the oil pump in the transmission had
worn out. So, happily, they fixed all of those.

Also, Frank, your instincts were good - the TT was the fault of our
slow starting. Unfortunately, when they replaced the TT, they
found another problem it was masking. There is a rod bearing that
is banging, so they are going to try to replace it but there is
some metal in the oil, and so he’s concerned we may have to do an
engine overhaul, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ::sigh::
well, at least she’s almost back in top notch order. Here’s hoping
the engine will last awhile longer!

It will last a while longer, Jade - but aggravating damage further…

A crude test of the metal residue in the oil is using a magnet - if
non-magnetic it is most likely remnants from the big end bearing. The slack
will hammer on and will eventually scorch the crankshaft. Caught reasonably
early little damage will be done and a replacing the bearing the engine will
probably be all that is required…

Unfortunately, it requires the sump to be dropped for proper access, which
is the laborious process, requiring cross member removal - changing the
bearing is a simple operation. Measurements should routinely be taken to
verify if there is damage to the crankshaft, scoring or out of round - and
of course, changing all the main bearings is par for the course with the
patient already open. With no damage to the crankshaft - replacing the
bearing is as good as it gets…

There is a catch of course, there always is - why did the bearing fail.
Beside happenstance or some flaw - there is a possibility that the oil
passage to that bearing may have become clogged. Bereft of a steady oil
supply a bearing will quickly overheat and rapidly wear out…

The problem may, very unlikely, be the small end gudgeon pin bearing - which
would require removal of the head as well. At which stage you are far into
an overhaul anyway. But if the compression is fairly good and even - a wide
overhaul is likely excessive, but as usual; what you find sometimes dictates
the course of events…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)-----Original Message-----
From: jadedcompass
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 3:09 AM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] Transmission ID, stoneguards, and the knocking…

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