Can anyone tell me what type of hardware mounts the front bumpers
on an xk120 to the bumper brackets? The rear has four small dome
nuts.–
Bob Fisk 54xk120se
San Antonio Texas, United States
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Bob, On the front there are three chrome dome nut on each bumper and two on
each rear bumpers.-----Original Message-----
From: 54xk120se
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 10:36 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] Front bumper mounting xk120
Can anyone tell me what type of hardware mounts the front bumpers
on an xk120 to the bumper brackets? The rear has four small dome
nuts.
–
Bob Fisk 54xk120se
San Antonio Texas, United States
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In reply to a message from 54xk120se sent Tue 28 Apr 2015:
Dome nuts, too…–
ysmalkie
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In reply to a message from ysmalkie sent Tue 28 Apr 2015:
yes, the dome nuts, but much larger ones–chrome—go on the
studs that should already be welded onto the chrome bumpers
interior, have a look at any of the parts supplier catalogs
and you will see the attachments parts…most have on line
drawings.
Nick–
Nick53XK120S
Spokane WA, United States
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In reply to a message from Nick53XK120S sent Tue 28 Apr 2015:
You will also find you will need 4 C741 washers under those
chrome dome nuts. The dome nuts themselves aren’t large enough
to completely secure the bumpers. The C741 washer is a black
oxide finish, and has a slight shoulder on the outer edge of
one face. Be careful when fastening the two bumpers to get
them straight, level, and equidistant. Put the car on known
level ground, use a long spirit level between the two it makes
the task a great deal easier. Hope this helps–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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In reply to a message from godfrey sent Tue 28 Apr 2015:
For those who still believe in the XK120 Spare Parts Catalouge
Apparently there were two types/styles of the large dome nuts that
attached the bumper Spring Bars to the body extensions. The Parts
Book, Page 75-76 lists both a C3837 and a C5819 depending on the
early or later Chassis Number. These large dome nuts were the sdame
for attaching the front and rear Spring Bars.
The 4ea small dome nuts are appropriate, only for the Rear (chrome)
Over-Riders as they attach to the Spring Bars.
The front (chrome) bumper bars are held to their spring bars by 6ea
plain (not domed) hex nuts C4202/3. I believe that the originals
were nickel plated.
Yes, there are washers associated with all of these nuts.
Good luck,
Dick–
120 OTS/FHC, '94 XJ40
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I for one - do BELIEVE in the accuracy of the Spare Parts Catalogues - if
you have the correct/right edition, and you correctly interpret the
information provided.
UNLESS you/someone can PROOVE otherwise, and very few owners have seen more
than one or two cars up this close, let alone reliably original/unrestored
cars, so needs expert knowledge to prove otherwise.
But yes, even so there were some errors in J8, and Charles has a
‘list-in-progress’.
But for what’s its worth - the “6ea plain (not domed) hex nuts C4202/3”
referred to by Dick show their Jaguar Chassis Part Number (C - prefix), and
not a “standard fastener part number” that decodes to an exact size/type of
standard fastener, whether bolt, nut, split-pin, washer etc, or in this case
a standard hexagon nut (NN.137/L) or a standard Lock Nut (NN.237/L) or a
standard Dome-Nut etc.
But if it was Nickel Plated, then it is no-longer a “standard fastener”,
thus Jaguar would allocate a Jaguar Chassis Part Number such as the C4202/3
referenced.
I don’t yet know exactly what a C4202/3 is, but typically for “special
fasteners” that were not standard due to being plated or similar, Jaguar
would allocate say C4202 as the part number for the family/style of
fastener, and allocate /1, /2, /3 etc suffixes for different thread size
(but not always one size incremental up)
Now it just so happens that I definitely DO KNOW what a C4202/2 is - it is a
standard-hexagon 5/16" UNF nut - but CADMIUM PLATED, as used to secure XK140
Inlet Manifold to Head, noting two things for an early XK120 same nut would
be actually 5/16"ANF (as the new UNF British Standard was not yet in force,
but all thread sizes ANF are identical to UNF except the 1" size), and
Jaguar (and SU) did not change part numbers when Nickel Plating or Chrome
Plating was superseded by Cadmium Plating.
So what I am saying is that odds on - a C4202/3 is most definitely a Nickel
maybe Cadmium Plated standard hexagon nut, and will most likely be one
increment larger size so 3/8"ANF/UNF (easy enough to measure the thread to
be 100% sure).
Whether these C4202/3 plated nuts are Nickel or Chrome, or indeed Cadmium
will be an age related matter that most likely will span the 1949-54 period,
if indeed it changed, so that’s some detail that can only be established by
physical observation of known original (and not restored) XK120s, because
with external bright ware it is not a given that something originally
Nickel/Chrome would be changed to Cadmium being less bright/durable - but I
tend to think/guess (I don’t know) that late XK120s may probably have
Cadmium Plated C4202/3 standard hexagon nuts, but that indeed almost
certainly, most XK120s up to I am guessing 1953/54 will be Nickel or Chrome
Plated. The clue would be, when exactly did C4202/2 Inlet Manifold Nuts
change from Nickel/Chrome to Cadmium. Its improbable that C4202/3
changed at a different time.
Whether Nickel or Chrome - I remain confused. Certainly Nickel and Chrome
are totally different metals, but as a plating finish we get into Dull
Nickel and Dull Chrome, which looks quite different to what we normally
expect with polished triple-plated Chrome, as in bumpers and windscreen trim
etc, and polished Nickel, but it gets a bit confusing looking at old 50 year
old plated items. SU for instance, clearly states in their technical
documentation that plated components on their carburetter assemblies were
DULL NICKEL during XK120 period, but had become CADMIUM PLATED by XK140
period, but exact changeover point is a research project in progress. I
have nothing similarly definite with Jaguar parts, with bright ware usually
being POLISHED CHROME, so no real view on plated fasteners (yet)
So that’s the theory - in this case it supports the SPC J.8 as being correct
and supports Dick’s advice as also most probably being correct with question
mark over Nickel or Chrome.
If anyone thinks the SPC is incorrect - let them produce the evidence
otherwise.
And someone can confirm exact thread size, and views about Nickel or Chrome
for these Bumper-Bar bolt plated-nuts (C4202/3), and also Inlet Manifold
plated-nuts (C4202/2) would be most welcome.
Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia
.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
OK3
Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2015 2:48 PM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] Front bumper mounting xk120
In reply to a message from godfrey sent Tue 28 Apr 2015:
For those who still believe in the XK120 Spare Parts Catalouge
Apparently there were two types/styles of the large dome nuts that attached
the bumper Spring Bars to the body extensions. The Parts Book, Page 75-76
lists both a C3837 and a C5819 depending on the early or later Chassis
Number. These large dome nuts were the sdame for attaching the front and
rear Spring Bars.
The 4ea small dome nuts are appropriate, only for the Rear (chrome)
Over-Riders as they attach to the Spring Bars.
The front (chrome) bumper bars are held to their spring bars by 6ea plain
(not domed) hex nuts C4202/3. I believe that the originals were nickel
plated.
Yes, there are washers associated with all of these nuts.
Good luck,
Dick
120 OTS/FHC, '94 XJ40
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Roger P;
I am trying to do a LOT of things, RE Jaguar Information, but going
thru the 120 Parts Catalogue finding/listing the errors, is NOT one of them.
I am not aware of who might be doing this “job” ;-}… I do know that one
XKer is doing a “running list” of mistakes in Viart’s “XK120 Explored” and
said list is rather lengthy!
Now, with respect to the 120’s Bumper Mounting Pieces, if you go to my
website, I have some pics of the Bumper Attaching Hardware for the Front
and rear on MY XK120DHC. These can be seen at:
http://www.xktx.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1171… Again, I note, these
are off MY 120 and are intended as MY “reassembly reference”! Other 120’s
may have different fasteners that a DPO or DADealership incorrectly
replaced.
I believe my Bumper Assembly Hardware to be original to MY 120 DHC.
Lastly, a “Chrome Plating Primer”… ALL Chrome Plating is Nickel… but
NOT all Nickel Plating is Chrome!! Confused? Don’t be… The “to be plated”
bare-metal part has to have a “base coat” of some metal that allows other
metals to stick… This can be a “strike coat” of Nickel or a “build coat”
of
copper, or both… This coat is polished to a high shine then Nickel is
plated
over the base coat. For some parts, the plating process stops right there
and
the parts will eventually “dull”, the nickel can crack or “craze”
(spider-web).
For “High Shine” items like bumpers and other items, the chrome plate is
“sealed” with a clear “chromate” (thus the name “Chrome Plating”)… Also,
just because a part has the Chromate sealing, the Nickel CAN still craze
after a number of years (decades?) Chromate generally imparts NO colour to
the finished item, although in the modern era, a “blue chromate” is often
used.
this gives a blue “hue” to the item. Blue Chromate was NOT used in the
'50’s!
Charles #677556
http://xktx.org----- Original Message -----
From: “Roger Payne”
I for one - do BELIEVE in the accuracy of the Spare Parts Catalogues - if
you have the correct/right edition, and you correctly interpret the
information provided.
UNLESS you/someone can PROOVE otherwise, and very few owners have seen
more
than one or two cars up this close, let alone reliably original/unrestored
cars, so needs expert knowledge to prove otherwise.
But yes, even so there were some errors in J8, and Charles has a
‘list-in-progress’.
In reply to a message from cb@XKTX.Org sent Wed 29 Apr 2015:
Its me keeping a list of errors in J.8, J.11 and J.13 and so
far I have about 62 errors and anomalies, but nothing
noteworthy on bumper nuts, except that I have examples of
dome nuts made of brass and steel. I suspect this may
explain the different part numbers?
I lost track whether we were talking about the nuts holding
the chrome bumper to the spring bar, or the nuts holding the
spring bar to the wing and chassis brace bars?
Chrome bumper to spring bar hex nut is C.4202/3 for all
cars. Unfortunately these were missing on my car when it
came to me.
Spring bar to wing dome nut is C.3837 for early OTS to about
Dec '51 or Jan '52, then C.5819 for later OTS and all FHC
and DHC.
However, my Nov '51 FHC has brass dome nuts, and the '53 FHC
I parted out had steel dome nuts.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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Thousand apologies Charles and Rob - I couldn’t quickly find where I had
stored ROB REILLYs list of “XK120 Spare Parts Catalogue ERRATA” so quickly
thought it must/had to have been done by someone with long-term close and
personal expertise in XK120s, so thought it was you Charles.
But clearly that criteria also applies to Rob, and I have now found his
Errata Listing produced in April 2007.
Rob introduces his Errata listing with comment “I thought it might be fun to
start a thread listing all the mistakes, typographical errors, things not
clear, and things left out in the XK120 parts catalogues.
I am using the J.8 Jan '58 reprint, J.11 June '53, and J.13 June '54.”
Not sure if things have progressed by Rob or others, since 2007, but that is
off this topic, as a quick scan of list doesn’t seem to include any
comment/error on the subject Bumper Mounting Nuts.
But thanks for your comments on Chrome and Nickel plating, I have a
reasonable working knowledge but never really understood why general opinion
in Australia was that American Chrome Plating used to be considered to have
a blue ‘hue’, whereas original Jaguar plating (and what we get as standard)
in Australia didn’t, but something to be aware of with today’s Chrome
Platers.
The standard plating we get in Australia without specifically asking (as I
understand it) is stripped/bare steel, repaired to some degree if required,
that is first Copper Plated that gives some fill, polished, then a Nickel
coat, then a final (clear) Chromate top coat - thus the term ‘Triple
Plated’, but its all the polishing that assists the final SHINE. I will
have to have a detailed talk with my plater (again) next visit - currently
getting my XK140 GRILLE done which is a ‘special job’ on die-cast aluminium.
The smash repair business with bumpers would skip the copper and/or nickel
step - thus the poor durability, but good enough for the customer pick-up
inspection and the warranty period
Any comments on what exactly is DULL NICKEL and DULL CHROME plating re
process or differences if any in chemicals/metals?
Are you saying that DULL NICKEL is just the copper plating followed by
nickel plating and no final Chromate, if so - what is NICKEL PLATING and
what is DULL CHROME plating?
Have a look at your Carburetter linkages/levers - S.U. themselves, describes
this as DULL NICKEL? No sign of polishing or copper-plating?
I am struggling also with correct finish for INLET MANIFOLD NUTS
Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia
.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
cb@XKTX.Org
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2015 1:27 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] Front bumper mounting xk120
Roger P;
I am trying to do a LOT of things, RE Jaguar Information, but going thru
the 120 Parts Catalogue finding/listing the errors, is NOT one of them.
I am not aware of who might be doing this “job” ;-}… I do know that one
XKer is doing a “running list” of mistakes in Viart’s “XK120 Explored” and
said list is rather lengthy!
Now, with respect to the 120’s Bumper Mounting Pieces, if you go to my
website, I have some pics of the Bumper Attaching Hardware for the Front and
rear on MY XK120DHC. These can be seen at:
http://www.xktx.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1171… Again, I note, these
are off MY 120 and are intended as MY “reassembly reference”! Other 120’s
may have different fasteners that a DPO or DADealership incorrectly
replaced.
I believe my Bumper Assembly Hardware to be original to MY 120 DHC.
Lastly, a “Chrome Plating Primer”… ALL Chrome Plating is Nickel… but
NOT all Nickel Plating is Chrome!! Confused? Don’t be… The “to be plated”
bare-metal part has to have a “base coat” of some metal that allows other
metals to stick… This can be a “strike coat” of Nickel or a “build coat”
of
copper, or both… This coat is polished to a high shine then Nickel is
plated over the base coat. For some parts, the plating process stops right
there and the parts will eventually “dull”, the nickel can crack or “craze”
(spider-web).
For “High Shine” items like bumpers and other items, the chrome plate is
“sealed” with a clear “chromate” (thus the name “Chrome Plating”)… Also,
just because a part has the Chromate sealing, the Nickel CAN still craze
after a number of years (decades?) Chromate generally imparts NO colour to
the finished item, although in the modern era, a “blue chromate” is often
used.
this gives a blue “hue” to the item. Blue Chromate was NOT used in the
'50’s!
Charles #677556
http://xktx.org
----- Original Message -----
From: “Roger Payne”
I for one - do BELIEVE in the accuracy of the Spare Parts Catalogues -
if you have the correct/right edition, and you correctly interpret the
information provided.
UNLESS you/someone can PROOVE otherwise, and very few owners have seen
more than one or two cars up this close, let alone reliably
original/unrestored cars, so needs expert knowledge to prove
otherwise.
But yes, even so there were some errors in J8, and Charles has a
‘list-in-progress’.
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 29 Apr 2015:
Roger Do your inlet manifold nuts have the demarkation of PPP
across one or more of the flats ? If so they are (at least on
the 120) dull nickel. Never known what the PPP stands for but
to my knowledge these are the only place on the car where they
are used.–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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Reviving this thread. I’ve looked through the FHC parts manual, XK120 explored, and the SNG catalogue and can’t find where some of the C.793 washers go. There are 8 noted in the parts manual per car, and 4 are shown in Plate AU. I can’t find any reference to the location in any of the documents noted. Where do the other 4 go?
The same goes for the C.728 Shakeproof Washer (2), and C.728 Washer (2).
In XK120 Explored, page 412, the outer bolt arrangement shows a “Thinner Distance Piece” but can’t find reference to this in the parts manual or other sources. I was able to salvage 1 from my car, though (the other seems to have gone walkies). According to the parts manual, this is where the C.793’s go.
There is a link from Charles in one of the previous posts that might be helpful, but I could not get the link to work (http://www.xktx.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1171).
Does anyone have a picture of what they would up putting in their 120 or some other thoughts on the above?
As always, many thanks in advance.
BobE
I adopted Viarts arrangement as shown on pages 412/413.
This arrangement worked pretty well for my car, but I would caveat that you can add washers (or reduce distance piece) as required to achieve a good fit. If not, it will pull and distort the wing around the holes. I turned my own distance pieces largely based on Viarts measurements. Once again, “hand made”.
Attached photos are from above and inner and outer are self explanatory. - Ignore the strange shadow line.
Edit - Looking at p413 again it is confusing. I used the arrangement on p412
I’ve often found the DHC Supplement to be more complete than the other Body Sections.
Shakeproof washers (aka internal star locking washers) are always used directly under a nut.
The C.726 is for 3/8" bolts and C.728 is for 1/2" bolts.
I have extra flat washers on my inboard locations. I believe those would be the C.793 special extra-thick washers. They were probably given a C number because they were extra-thick, not standard flat washers.
It’s been a long time since I touched them, but I’m pretty sure I put them back the same as they were originally.
I realized that I had not thanked those who posted an answer to my question on this. Thanks very much all!
BobE