Pirelli have just produced a new batch of the 185Vr16 CA67
Cinturato that is the best tyre for an XK Jaguar.
https://www.borrani.com/185vr16-pirelli-cinturato.html
I believe they were an option on the XK150, if you could afford
them, does anyone know any more about that.
Dougal
Longstone Tyres–
Longstone Tyres
South Yorkshire, United Kingdom
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Dougal,
Given your sign-off being from Longstone Tyres, maybe you can answer:-
Local inquiries have advised us that DUNLOP RS5 tyres are no longer
available - after a factory fire or similar disaster.
Is this correct, and if so, any comments/likelihood resuming production?
Now I know even if called DUNLOP RS5 (or Pirelli Cinturato) these modern
remakes are not the same as the 1950s/60s originals in both construction,
compounds (for the better) and also appearance - with modern legal markings
and size markings etc added to side-walls, even if tread-pattern is
faithful.
But given our XKs originally had DUNLOP ROAD SPEEDS, then by XK150 had been
upgraded to DUNLOP RS4 - with RS5 not appearing until early 1960s, any
likelihood of a ROADSPEED or an RS4 in 6:00 x 16" size, and leave the RS5
for 3.8 E-type 15" tyres?
A few of us have been investigating original fitment (including OPTIONAL
fitment) of any radial ply tyre to XKs, and although both Michelin X and
Pirelli Cinturato were readily available after-market in the 1950s,
specifically targeted at XK120/XK140/XK150 replacement tyre market, there is
no evidence of any factory fitment on new XKs - the KEY evidence required
for JCNA (North American) and ACJC (Australian) Concours Rules.
There is strong indication that XK150 sold NEW into France were possibly
fitted with Michelin X by factory, or if not by the French Importer to
customer order, but nothing concrete.
The suggestion was that Michelin tyres were also fitted to some XK140 as
well by the Importer, but Jaguar was not happy with radials being fitted to
54 spoke XK140/early XK150 wire-wheels, thus all part of the wheels being
upgraded re lateral strength to become 60 spoke.
But nothing similar for Pirelli, nor any other maker of radial tyres in the
late 1950s.
So if you have anything of SUBSTANCE regarding Michelin (or Pirelli) radials
being factory/optional fitment to XK150 (or XK140) that would be great.
But one other bugger factor is that both Michelin and Pirelli in the 1950s
were still marking their tyres with ‘all-inch’ sizes (6.00 x 16") and not
the later agreed convention of ‘all-inch’ for cross-ply tyres only, and
‘metric-inch’ (185 x 16") for Radial tyres.
But for XK use away from the Concours arena, I far prefer Radial tyres over
cross-ply, albeit personally, but the Pirelli Cinturato is not my first
choice, much preferring Michelin X.
Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia
.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Longstone
Sent: 30 September, 2015 22:20
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] Pirelli Cinturato
Pirelli have just produced a new batch of the 185Vr16 CA67 Cinturato that is
the best tyre for an XK Jaguar.
https://www.borrani.com/185vr16-pirelli-cinturato.html
I believe they were an option on the XK150, if you could afford them, does
anyone know any more about that.
Dougal
Longstone Tyres
South Yorkshire, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 30 Sep 2015:
Roger: by Michelin X, do you mean the Pilote X which are
superb. I have them on a couple of XKs.–
The original message included these comments:
But for XK use away from the Concours arena, I far prefer Radial tyres over
cross-ply, albeit personally, but the Pirelli Cinturato is not my first
choice, much preferring Michelin X.
–
peder
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 30 Sep 2015:
Hi Roger
It is fair to say that the tyres currently made by Michelin and Pirelli are not exactly
the same as they were in period. Inn todays green world we are not allowwed to use the
same cemicalss as were used in the '50s and '60s so they just have to be different.
Currently Dunlop are not making any historic road tyres and I can’t see that cchanging
in the near future. even the 185VR15 SP Sport that came out in 1968 and was fitted to
the MK2 e-type is not currently made by Dunlop and made else where.
However the
Michelin X http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/185sr16-michelin-x.html
Michelin Pilote X http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/600-16-michelin-pilot-x.html
Pirelli Cinturato CA67 http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/185vr16-pirelli-
cinturato.html
Are all genuine tyres made by the company that have their name on the side of the tyre
Personally I think the Michelin X is great for steady use, the nice thin foot print
makes the steering nice light and precise. To be critical it is not really a sports car
tyre , so the sharpish edge to the tread means it is not a very progressive tyre. and
the S (112mph) speed rating isn’t really ideal. but for the steady driver they are
lovely. The X is currently an amazing price (� 155 or $ 225) and we ship them to most
of the world for that price free.
The 600WR16 Pilote X is a fantastic tyre. I’m not sure it needs a 170mph speed
ratting, but that isn’t a problem. they will be a bit heavier on the steering, but if
you want to press on they are great and they would be great on a track.
And the Cinturato is just perfect for everything.–
Longstone Tyres
South Yorkshire, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Longstone sent Fri 1 Apr 2016:
Hi Dougal,
Yes, I am sure most of what you write is perfectly true,
but I think it’s not entirely fair, as you are slightly
biased being a major vendor in classis tires.
I have nothing bad to say about Michelin or Pirelli, I
have only had good experiences with both, but I have to
add that the repro Dunlops you seem to be referring to
have also been excellent tires on my cars. The fact that
they are not being manufactured by the company that in
today’s world owns the rights to the Dunlop name is really
not essential IMO. The fact that they match the
appearance, that the Dunlop name has been officially
licensed and that the tires handle really well and that
they are available at the correct (and in many countries
required) speed rating is more important IMHO.
AFAIK they are made in England and not Japan or China like
most modern Dunlops would be made.
Currently I have 205/70VR15 XWX’s on the V12 E and I have
driven thousands of miles in difficult conditions and I
have been happy with them, but so I did also with
Michelins XVS and the new repro Dunlops (SP41 185VR15)
with my previous S1 4.2L E. But for the MKV I will not fit
radials, cross ply RS5 repro tires are going under next, I
will be happy to share my experiences.
Most US folks on the E forum seem to prefer the Vredestein
Sprint Classics, but AFAIK those are radials too.
But please don’t get me wrong, I have heard great words
about your service and knowledge and I may just purchase
some Michelins or Pirellis for other cars from you when
the time comes. 
Cheers,
Pekka T.
Fin.–
The original message included these comments:
It is fair to say that the tyres currently made by Michelin and Pirelli are not exactly
the same as they were in period. Inn todays green world we are not allowwed to use the
same cemicalss as were used in the '50s and '60s so they just have to be different.
Currently Dunlop are not making any historic road tyres and I can’t see that cchanging
in the near future. even the 185VR15 SP Sport that came out in 1968 and was fitted to
the MK2 e-type is not currently made by Dunlop and made else where.
However the
Michelin X 185 SR 16 Tyres - Classic Michelin X
Michelin Pilote X 6.00 R 16 Tyres - Classic Michelin Pilote X
Pirelli Cinturato CA67 185 VR 16 Tyres - Classic PIRELLI CINTURATO ™ CA67
cinturato.html
–
MKV 3.5L DHC, E V12 OTS, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Pekka,
I’m interested in this debate because I have to make my tyre choices
shortly. I almost certain that I should put Cints on the 140. They look
right and they are thin enough not to foul the spats and they were my tyre
of choice on the sports cars I owned in the 60s. But my V12 E will be
completed in a few months and I’m not sure about that. (I’ll take that
elsewhere as not XK related unless anyone wants to reply off list).
Eric
Church Stretton, UK-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
ptelivuo
Sent: 03 April 2016 09:06
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] Pirelli Cinturato
In reply to a message from Longstone sent Fri 1 Apr 2016:
Hi Dougal,
Yes, I am sure most of what you write is perfectly true, but I think it’s
not entirely fair, as you are slightly biased being a major vendor in
classis tires.
I have nothing bad to say about Michelin or Pirelli, I have only had good
experiences with both, but I have to add that the repro Dunlops you seem to
be referring to have also been excellent tires on my cars. The fact that
they are not being manufactured by the company that in today’s world owns
the rights to the Dunlop name is really not essential IMO. The fact that
they match the appearance, that the Dunlop name has been officially licensed
and that the tires handle really well and that they are available at the
correct (and in many countries
required) speed rating is more important IMHO.
AFAIK they are made in England and not Japan or China like most modern
Dunlops would be made.
Currently I have 205/70VR15 XWX’s on the V12 E and I have driven thousands
of miles in difficult conditions and I have been happy with them, but so I
did also with Michelins XVS and the new repro Dunlops (SP41 185VR15) with my
previous S1 4.2L E. But for the MKV I will not fit radials, cross ply RS5
repro tires are going under next, I will be happy to share my experiences.
Most US folks on the E forum seem to prefer the Vredestein Sprint Classics,
but AFAIK those are radials too.
But please don’t get me wrong, I have heard great words about your service
and knowledge and I may just purchase some Michelins or Pirellis for other
cars from you when the time comes.
Cheers,
The original message included these comments:
It is fair to say that the tyres currently made by Michelin and
Pirelli are not exactly the same as they were in period. Inn todays
green world we are not allowwed to use the same cemicalss as were used in
the '50s and '60s so they just have to be different.
Currently Dunlop are not making any historic road tyres and I can’t
see that cchanging in the near future. even the 185VR15 SP Sport that
came out in 1968 and was fitted to the MK2 e-type is not currently made
by Dunlop and made else where.
However the
Michelin X
185 SR 16 Tyres - Classic Michelin X
Michelin Pilote X
6.00 R 16 Tyres - Classic Michelin Pilote X
Pirelli Cinturato CA67
185 VR 16 Tyres - Classic PIRELLI CINTURATO ™ CA67
cinturato.html
–
MKV 3.5L DHC, E V12 OTS, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive --Posted using Jag-lovers
JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support Jag-lovers - Donate at
http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
I don’t dispute what you say about the repro Dunlops. However i do think that Pirelli and Michelin are 2 of the worlds best tyre manufacturers. And a Michelin tyre is produced by a Michelin factory to it’s own in house quality control as is a Pirelli. quality wise it doesn’t get better.
I don’t think they prefer a Vredestein, it is bought because of it’s price.
You would only choose a Vredestein over a Michelin or Pirelli because of it’s price. No one would choose that tread pattern or to have a tyre with the word Classic on the side wall if it weren’t for the price.
However what i don’t think people realize is that we are supplying a 185SR16 Michelin X 185 SR 16 Tyres - Classic Michelin X at an amazing price and that is a genuine period tyre. yes it is only speed ratted to 112 mph, but for a steady driver it will be miles nicer, to drive on, and at the same time actually look good.
We ship these to most places free of carriage charges too.
Yes the Cinturato or Michelin Pilote X is a better sports car tyre, but that 185SR16 Michelin X is excellent for gentle road use and the price is amazing. (I would still fit a Cinturato, that is what i have on my Lotus Elite)
Hi Dougal,
Since you have these tires, could you please let us know where are they actually manufactured?
Thanks, Tadek
PS. Just a word of warning - maybe cut down on the advertising your amazing prices and website (we all know it and are grateful for your knowledge, input and business :-)) A gentleman was suspended on the forum for much less recently…
To all interested on the subject
Recently purchased a new set of Michelin X 185 x 16 radials for my XK 140 FHC (still running on Avon cross plies).I know that Michelin X tires (although period correct) were never offered by Jaguar, but what a difference in driving quality!!! Both steering, roadholding and lack of vibrations are so much better.
I gladly accept being not 100% historically correct, in the understanding the 1955 owner could have purchased these Michelins just around the corner.
Additional information: these Michelin X radials are still manufactured by Michelin although no longer in France but nowadays in Serbia (as you can read on the tire). The patteren still looks like the original Fifties X tyre.
Bob K.
The Pirelli’s are made in the Pirelli factory in Turkey. This is the same factory that they use to make their F1 tyres. The current batch have the date code 0717, so fresh as you like.
Correct me if i am wrong, but i believe you could have specified that you wanted Michlin X on and XK140. I believe you could also have specified Cinturato if you could afford it in period.
I think it is a sort of subtle difference that i have been pulled up on before, but i think when you went to Jaguar to buy your XK they didn’t offer you the choice of tyres,
Quite happy for evidence to the contrary, but to the extent of current research that I am aware of, is that Jaguar never offered radial ply tyres as factory options on XKs, and that of course includes both Michelin and Pirelli. A lot of effort has gone into this as it has major implications for both Australian (ACJC) and USA (JCNA) Concours Rules.
The best I can find and reasonably substantiate is that some XK’s delivered new in France may well have had Michelin X fitted as a local option, prior to delivery to new vehicle French customers. There is nothing (yet) similar supporting Pirelli Cinturato.
But otherwise, both Michelin X and later on, Pirelli Cinturato, were indeed offered period aftermarket fitment, but that does not satisfy either ACJC nor JCNA Concours Rules.
There is internal factory documentation that somehow has escaped the factory archives, that indicates that there was consideration given to offering certain radial tyres as an option, BUT there is no evidence that this internal consideration was ever realised in practice. A lot of people would love to see proof otherwise, but at present only cross-ply tyres are considered ‘authentic’ for XKs, in both Australia and USA. Anyone knowledgeable in the French scene, may like to offer comments…
Roger
just stir the pot here is a list of tyres offered and fitted by Jaguar themselves for customers!
I will add the price as well
XK150
Dunlop whitewall 10 pounds assume set of 4
Dunlop Racing R3 12 pounds ten shillings and sixpence
Avon Turbo Speed 6 ponds
Continental Extra Super Record 28 pounds 10 shillings
Michelin X 4 pounds 2 shillings and sixpence
and the old favourite the topic of this thread
Pirelli Centurata Price not listed
Interestingly this same factory document list Harold Radford conversions and the other day I picked up a october 1958 Jaguar Price List and it lists all the Harold Radford “Countryman” adaptions for the MKVIII and MKIX each noted a Jaguar spec number: J16 A fishing rod container!
prices quoted are then plus purchase tax
terry
PS Pirelli Centurata spelt as per factory document
Terry,
I’m writing a story on Dunlop wire wheels and the corresponding tires for Jaguar XK’s (period 1951 - 1961). This would be really new information you have there! Is there any date mentioned on this document? As it refers to the XK 150 I assume it will be somewhere between 1957 and 1961, but it would be very interesting to know the exact date.
Also note that the correct original Pirelli name for their radial tire was Centura from about 1952 till 1963/1964 when it became Cinturato. So Jaguar was really confused when the used the name Centurata which is a combination of the earlier and the later name! See attached ad from 1962/1963.
Bob K.
. 
Terry:
Attached is a photo of my newly restored 1959 XK150S FHC Chassis No. T836012DN. It is equipped with period correct Pirelli Cinturatos mounted on Borrani polished alloy wire wheels. The three eared spinners may be more recent. It was awarded .Best in Show at its first JCNA Concours. Purists do not worry, the car competes in the JCNA Concours Modified Class which allows inauthentic items such as the Borrani wheels and an original Derrington wood rimmed steering wheel. Under JCNA Concours Rules period correct equals inauthentic.
Terry,
You have made this same unsubstantiated claim before - and despite being asked to provide your evidence, seen unable to - so a total red-herring. Its easy to make claims without proof.
This forum now allows you to scan/photograph your so claimed proof, and post it on this site, if you really do have evidence - its surely a case of put-up, or shut-up.
If you won’t or can’t provide proof - it simply doesn’t exist, as evidence requirements can hardly take your word in good faith. I for one, do not believe you have any such proof - otherwise you would have provided it, given the regular debate around XKs with factory original radial tyres.
As before, if indeed there was any factory evidence of XK150 being sold new, with factory fitted Radial tyres, then that would have implications on both ACJC and JCNA Concours Rules - and maybe allow Tom to have one obstacle removed closer to entering JCNA Concours, in other than the Modified Class.
When you were WA - ACJC delegate contributing to ACJC Concours Rules - why did you not then provide your proof re XKs and original equipment Radial tyres ?
Roger
Bob,
Certainly hope you can unravel all of this.
I note Wikipedia supports the Pirelli advert spelling you show:-
First developed in 1952 under the name Pirelli Cintura, taking the name Cinturato in 1963
Not that Wikipedia is by any means a definitive forum without errors.
Have I sent you my period Michelin brochures listing Michelin as an after-market option for XK120/140 dating from about 1957 - if not I can scan and send to you direct.
Roger
Been a very very long time since I was ACJC delegate in fact probably 1991 when I got the 2 Jag clubs in WA amalgamated back together and this I am sure predated the intro of the copying JCNA rules. Apart from that I didn’t get these documents until we lived in the UK in 1992/3.
I would say there are a lot of items of an historical nature that are taken at face value from many people you could say much of the information in my 3 books is not necessarily proof that the info is factual or a car exists.
Yes we have raised this set of documents before on the forum the last time it was a matter there aren’t any part numbers listed so they don’t/can’t exist!
I could say that posting this copyrighted material here of forwarding copies on is in breach of the copyright of these documents as has been quoted to me by others.
It could be said I have forged the documents!
So at this point take my word for it that they do exist and maybe the Jaguar Daimler heritage trust can provide a set!
terry
You miss the point Terry,
An internal factory memo or note, discussing all manner of things, does not mean any decisions were made whether something would be made available or not, for production cars.
No one is disputing internal notes/memos were not produced nor exist – just a matter of what their substance is, regarding proof or otherwise, re production cars.
Such is also the folly of relying on prototype car photos as well – doesn’t mean all features/detail went into production. Just look at the photos in the XK140 Handbook.
ALL factories managers and decision makers canvas all sorts of things, before firming up and making decisions on what they will actually put into production or not, or offer as a factory optional-extra or not, and that’s the demarcation point re authenticity.
I still claim there has been NOTHING ever revealed/found that provides any proof at all that Radial Ply tyres – of any brand – were ever offered as original equipment, ex-factory, as either standard equipment nor an option, for an XK.
If the likes of Anders Clausager who had unlimited access to all the JDHT archives, including production and engineering records, could discover all sorts of obscure items, like various brands of radios ex-factory, and special order one-off paint and trim jobs recorded against individual Chassis Number XKs, – he most definitely would have found anything at all, as significant as Radial Tyres being fitted ex-factory to any XK – if indeed that ever happened.
(I do note that the first evidence of Jaguar offering Radial Tyres as original equipment (or optional equipment), was with the E-type in October 1965 – and then only after extensive testing/engineering evaluation given their legal and warranty obligations/implications.) Dealer fitted options, such as the also unproven claims of Michelin tyres being fitted on some French XKs, are at arms-length legal/warranty responsibility by factory – a situation that still exists today with certain manufacturers not offering certain options (Tow-Bars and Bull-Bars) to avoid legal responsibility, but their Dealers do, to new vehicle customer orders!.
All we have is the repeated red-herring claiming you have factory proof of radial tyre original equipment fitment for XKs, that you are unable to, or refuse to substantiate, with any more than a ‘take my word’ comment.
Let’s see what Bob comes up with – he has had a lot of success with his various research projects.
Roger
the internal memo which I have previously quoted is not what they may supply or are thinking of fitting this is a list of items that have been fitted complete with pricing structure and purchase tax noted.
The basis of the memo is to determine what items do get published as agreed to by WL.
Interestingly the Jaguar Price list dated October 1958 which I just got courtesy of EBAY the prices tally to this list
Webasto opening roof 75 pds on both documents
Weathershields sliding roof 60pds same both documents as is the Reuter reclining seats 35pds.
The entire last page of the October 1958 Jaguar Price list is devoted to Harold Radford adaptions for the MKVIII & IX, this is the one that includes J16 Fishing Rod container 30 pds!
The typed up list attached to the memo doesn’t detail all 17 items noted as part of Harold Radford adaptions but just “Harold Radford” conversions the next item listed after this was the Halda Speed Pilot.
Don’t forget back in this period a good number of cars where collected at the factory registered by the factory ready for use by overseas buyers and there was no dealer involved so a customer who is always right could request various items and Jaguar as they are now doing where only to happy to take the customers money so if you wanted your XK150 in a dual colour scheme it would set you back 15 pds 15 shillings and if you selected the non standard combination of cataloged colours exterior and interior add 4pds 4 shillings and if you wanted contrasting piping it was another 4 pds 4 shillings. I have seen a number of XK150’s with contrasting piping so obviously it was available.
So every item on the 6 page list was an item supplied to a customer for a particular car and sure some will be in limited number ie there would not be a lot of “Harold Radford” conversions sold. And whilst the JCNA and ACJC judging will not allow accessory’s fitted by dealers unless in a Jaguar catalog its good to have the comprehensive list of what Jaguar themselves where offering to their valued customers and fitting.
Jaguar were still selling prototype cars into the early 1960’s so all the modern nonsense on legal and warranty obligations/implications does not apply.
below is section with the spelling of the pirelli brand tire obviously a spelling mistake
Terry,
Are you sure that these documents are still copyrighted?.. Wouldn’t the rights cease after 25 years for such a document?
Tadek
