Some years back (I think in 1980) I was travelling in England and I
definately saw at least 3 cylinder heads, 1 complete engine and at least one
other block, these were definately 4 cylinder Jag engines, one head (at
least) was at Oldham and Crowthers, and the complete engine I think was at
Castle Donnington if that is the right name. I was trying to obtain a E.N.V.
crown wheel and pinion at the time (to no avail, I might add), the Oldham
and Crowther parts were literaly “under the bench”.
When I enquired how they got to be there I was told,“the factory was selling
off all it’s junk and we picked these up as a curiosity.” Who knows where
the truth lies.
Regards Peter Hitchin
Gentlemen - I normally live in the E-Type forum but thought this
might interest you.
Except for the fact the front has been smashed off, does it look to
you to be as described?
Neville–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Sat 29 Dec 2012:
Looks like a need for an XK100 forum to be started.
There was not only the XK100 engine, of which a few seem to be
kicking around unused [ I was offered one by Coombs in the 70s ,
too little money on me ] but there were experiments with a twin cam
4 cylinder SS engine pre war.
And presumably a number of variations .
The most famous and succssful would be the one loaned to MG for
installation in the K type chassis that was used for the Record
runs , over 170 mph. Faster than a 120 , I think.
Obviously not a bad engine and would have been great in a smaller
car.
The idea of one of these engines in an other wise unmodified XK120
seems odd.
Four cylinder engines in SS and Jaguars were previously in
suitably smaller cars.
This one seems to have been used by the corrosion in a water
jacket port.
There was a NOS XK 100 head on ebay a while back, just a bare head
but a 'collectors ’ price .
It seems a shame that none of the remaining engines have been put
into a special based on a suitable K Type [ or similar] MG chassis
and run / raced.
It seem equivalent to not have rebuilding the unraced rear engined
XJ 13 that gets trotted out. Was the ‘13’ in the name bad luck?
Possibly more so as the XK 100 engine does have a World class
record achievement on the board.–
The original message included these comments:
Except for the fact the front has been smashed off, does it look to
you to be as described?
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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Doesn’t look like an XK100 head casting to me?
Maybe its one of the earlier development 4-cylinder engines - several books
detail the evolution XA to XK cylinder heads.
The WM marking is Foundry marks as used by Jaguar for early XK heads, so all
seems OK, but I don’t have any decent references to be any surer.
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Ed Nantes
Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2012 10:57 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK100
In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Sat 29 Dec 2012:
Looks like a need for an XK100 forum to be started.
There was not only the XK100 engine, of which a few seem to be
kicking around unused [ I was offered one by Coombs in the 70s ,
too little money on me ] but there were experiments with a twin cam
4 cylinder SS engine pre war.
And presumably a number of variations .
The most famous and succssful would be the one loaned to MG for
installation in the K type chassis that was used for the Record
runs , over 170 mph. Faster than a 120 , I think.
Obviously not a bad engine and would have been great in a smaller
car.
The idea of one of these engines in an other wise unmodified XK120
seems odd.
Four cylinder engines in SS and Jaguars were previously in
suitably smaller cars.
This one seems to have been used by the corrosion in a water
jacket port.
There was a NOS XK 100 head on ebay a while back, just a bare head
but a 'collectors ’ price .
It seems a shame that none of the remaining engines have been put
into a special based on a suitable K Type [ or similar] MG chassis
and run / raced.
It seem equivalent to not have rebuilding the unraced rear engined
XJ 13 that gets trotted out. Was the ‘13’ in the name bad luck?
Possibly more so as the XK 100 engine does have a World class
record achievement on the board.
The original message included these comments:
Except for the fact the front has been smashed off, does it look to
you to be as described?
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Sat 29 Dec 2012:
There is a complete XK100 engine in the Collier Museum of
race cars in Naples Florida
[ http://www.rocketfin.com/collier-auto-museum.cfm ]
I have
been there and seen it up close and personal. It looks
exactly like a normal early XK engine but 2 cylinders
shorter. It is on a stand by itself, not associated with
any of the many other cars there.
(And other cars there are, all race cars or significant
other cars.) Miles Collier bought or was given all of the
Cunningham collection and the entire display is pure heaven
for a motorhead.
Roger–
Roger, '54 120 (SE) DHC, BRG, S678300
Tamarac, South Fla., United States
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In reply to a message from Velocette sent Sat 29 Dec 2012:
The more I study the pictures, the more I am convinced it could be
genuine. Jaguar were in the habit of smashing castings before
disposal and, coupled with the fact there seems to be some
corrosion in the waterways, I suspect it may have been run by
Jaguar rather than disposed of by the foundry directly. It also
seems to me that type of damage would not normally occur in use and
is likely to have been deliberate.
I live quite close to the (late) Jaguar Heritage Museum and have
had many chances to properly study their XK100. I do know that Rob
Beere rebuilt their engine and one of the things he had to do was
modify a pair of 6-cyl cams by cutting and welding - a rather
complex exercise. We will probably never know whether or not the
repair will stand up to use.
It seems to me that with the benefit of modern technology, it
should be possible (if expensive) to graft the front of a 6-cyl
engine on to the head. After all, the front of the engine only
really serves to cover the timing chains and isnt part of the deck.
The rest is repairable although sourcing a block and crank could
prove troublesome!
The thought of using an engine like this as a base for a MG record-
breaking recreation would be rather tantalising. I do own the only
surviving complete ‘‘XJ13’’ quad-cam prototype engine (the one in the
car is rather different to the 1966 original) and am currently
working on a recreation of the car as it was in 1966. There is some
stuff on my project here for anyone interested
As part of my research into the XJ13, I came across a large amount
of paperwork that came from the estate of the late Claude Baily and
there is quite a lot on XK100s. Here is an example:
http://www.xj13.eu/xj13/XK100_2.jpg
The handwritten comment, ‘‘Based on XK120C?’’ is rather interesting.
Also interesting to note the use of Mark VII components.
There is mention above of a head that came up on eBay a while ago.
Here is a picture of it from its new owner and his rather
optimistic asking price!
I think I feel a project coming on - just don’t tell my wife …
Anyone have a XK100 lying under the bench?–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Sun 30 Dec 2012:
A bit more info on the 4-cyl engines gleaned from a 1953 paper
produced by WM Heynes …
It wasn’t a XK 4-cyl engine that was loaned to ‘‘Goldie’’ Gardner for
his world record attempt. It was an earlier ‘‘XJ’’ 4-cyl engine that
was used (12:1 compression; 2 litres; 80.5 x 90mm; modified
pistons; 146 bhp @ 6000rpm). It was not the later ‘‘XK’’ 4-cyl
engine. Three separate designs of the 4-cyl engine were built as
prototypes before the final XK 4-cyl engine–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Sun 30 Dec 2012:
The XJ 13 project is really inspiring.
The vendor of the NOS XK100 head is the same one as on ebay. I
looked at some of his other stuff. Some fascinating items ,
imaginatively priced.
He mentions only 4 x XK 100 engines , I’ve certainly seen one in
the Museum at York W Aust, not sure whether it’s still there , and
one at Coombs in Surrey., and one in Florida.
I’m puzzled why Jaguar heritage Museam went to the trouble of
modifying 6 cylinder cams . New camshafts are not that hard or
expensive to make, nor even new crankshafts.
If I was running one of the engines I’d be coonsidering whether a
modern crank design would bring an improvement.
The use of a Jaguar engine in an MG had previously been tried
before Goldie Gardner.
A car called the Jaguarette had been built and road tested
involving an N Type MG chassis with a 2 1/2 litre SS engine. The
owner seems pleased in it as a road and hillclimb car.
It would be interesting to build a repro in the record run form ,
but possibly one would be short on events to run it.
Otherwise a traditional square rigger sports racing circuit car.
MG s are light and nimble, and someone here has an Offenhauser
engined MG TC which goes well on the track.
The Claude Bailey notes are also fascinating. Perhaps his
reference to a MK VI was a misprint from MK VII.
I may be entirely wrong but I thought that by late very 1952 they
would have given up on the idea of a 4 cylinder XK engine.–
The original message included these comments:
As part of my research into the XJ13, I came across a large amount
of paperwork that came from the estate of the late Claude Baily and
there is quite a lot on XK100s. Here is an example:
There is mention above of a head that came up on eBay a while ago.
Here is a picture of it from its new owner and his rather
optimistic asking price!
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Sun 30 Dec 2012:
Reading Paul Skilleter’s book Jaguar Saloons, I wonder whether
Bailey’s notes actually refer to the idea of 4 cylinder engine in
the Mk 1 instead of the 2.4 litre six not the XK 100.
The timing is closer to the development of teh MK 1 than teh XK100.
It doesn’t mention bore and stroke but Jaguar seemd to have had a
habit of rounding capacities, often downwards as in ‘’ 1 1/2’’
and ‘‘2 1/2’’ litre engines.
Skilleter mentions the that ‘‘serious consideration was given to
using the XK100 engine and the car very nearly appeared with thus
engine which had been further developed since …1948…’’
I think te ’ based on 120C comment refers to the sump and ‘’
porting of the latest type’'–
The original message included these comments:
As part of my research into the XJ13, I came across a large amount
of paperwork that came from the estate of the late Claude Baily and
there is quite a lot on XK100s. Here is an example:
http://www.xj13.eu/xj13/XK100_2.jpg
The handwritten comment, ‘‘Based on XK120C?’’ is rather interesting.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Sun 30 Dec 2012:
Hi Ed - thanks for your informative and helpful reply - much
appreciated 
He mentions only 4 x XK 100 engines , I’ve certainly seen one in
the Museum at York W Aust, not sure whether it’s still there ,
and one at Coombs in Surrey., and one in Florida.
Is this the Australian engine you mention?
http://www.xj13.eu/xj13/ftlemuseum0211000.jpg
The picture was taken at the Fremantle Motor Museum in March 2007.
The Museum has since closed and much sold off. The engine behind it
is a ‘‘marine’’ XK engine with some rather impressive triple-choke
SUs.
Fascinating to hear about the Jaguarette. I will certainly look it
up. Although I know a (very) little about Jaguar I know absolutely
nothing about MG and will enjoy learning about these specials. I
can definitely feel a second project coming on!
I did wonder about the reference to ‘‘Mk VI’’. The context of its
mention does suggest it wasn’t a misprint as it says, ‘‘a list of
items that are at VARIANCE with the Mk VI’’ and then goes on to list
the Mk VII flywheel as being one of those items. If it should have
read ‘‘Mk VII’’ I don’t think the Mk VII flywheel would have been
included in the list. Perhaps there was a Mk VI ‘‘on paper’’ or maybe
even built up within the works but never released to the public?
Your thoughts on the 4-cyl in place of the 2.4 6-cyl are
interesting and do make sense to me. It does tie up with the
paperwork. Incidentally, I have another piece of paper about the 4-
cyl ‘‘XK’’ engine with the words, ‘‘50 engines’’ handwritten on it (in
Baily’s own hand). This does tie up with parts for 50 engines being
manufactured.–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
I should have said, ‘‘double-choke SUs’’ blush–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
The twin choke SUs were for the Cooper Coventry Climax engines
I don’t know about them on XK engines
There was a set advertised recently in the local VSCCA newsletter.
A fascinating thing to have , but I had no idea what I’d do with
them.
I suupose the York Museam stuff had moved arounf Western Australia.
I think the owner ended up wioth other issues taking prority.
A Western Australian once , rather admiringly, said to me that he
was the first person [ the owner] to realise that you could move
money around teh world in the form of collectible cars. The
implication being ‘’ without atracting the attention of the
authroities’'.
As I said , a long time ago.
50 engines sounds more realistic than four. Once you’ve made
patterns, making extras is not that expensive
It’s always the first one that the big money goes into.
In any case foundries run more to allow for reject castings.–
The original message included these comments:
The Museum has since closed and much sold off. The engine behind it
is a ‘‘marine’’ XK engine with some rather impressive triple-choke
SUs.
cyl ‘‘XK’’ engine with the words, ‘‘50 engines’’ handwritten on it (in
Baily’s own hand). This does tie up with parts for 50 engines being
manufactured.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
Hi Ed - I sent an email to the address shown here. Did it arrive
safely?
Neville–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
The twin choke SUs were for the Cooper Coventry Climax engines
Yes - they were used on Coventry Climax 2.5 litre F1 engines as
well as their 2 litre and 1.5 litre sports car and F2 engines.
According to Peter Wilson (ex Jaguar Comp. Dept.), who also worked
for SU in the mid 70’s, '‘there were a load of the things(twin-choke
SUs) in our engineering stores which were thrown away for scrap
just before I left there in ‘76.’’–
The original message included these comments:
The twin choke SUs were for the Cooper Coventry Climax engines
–
Neville - http://www.XJ13.eu, XJ13 in-progress.
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In reply to a message from V12 Racer sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
Yes and there was a published story (read I can not find it right
now) that Jaguar found several (I remember 12) prototype engines in
of all places the fire dept when it was cleaned out. Jopefully I
will find the article.–
The original message included these comments:
for SU in the mid 70’s, '‘there were a load of the things(twin-choke
SUs) in our engineering stores which were thrown away for scrap
just before I left there in ‘76.’’
–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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In reply to a message from George Camp sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
I think when Julian Gosh was out here years ago he said to Gregor
Rusden [ another ex Jaguar employee, out here] that he could find
him one of the 4 cam V12 engines for Gregor’s MK 10.
Gregor said , no he wanted to keep it original , I suppose that’s
why he converted it to Man OD : >)–
The original message included these comments:
Yes and there was a published story (read I can not find it right
now) that Jaguar found several (I remember 12) prototype engines in
of all places the fire dept when it was cleaned out. Jopefully I
will find the article.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:
Fascinating topic, and I really enjoy the pics. But if memory
serves, didn’t they offer the 4 cyl engine in their literature?
Steve Anderson–
SRAnderson
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I did indeed once possess one of the XK brochures, the chocolate coloured one with the growler medallion, that listed the specifications for the 4 cylinder XK 100. I cut out the pictures and pasted them on my bedroom wall, but that was about 60 years ago.— On Wed, 1/2/13, SRAnderson r6pak@aol.com wrote:
From: SRAnderson r6pak@aol.com
Subject: Re: [xk] XK100
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2013, 10:11 PM
In reply to a message from Ed Nantes
sent Mon 31 Dec 2012:Fascinating topic, and I really enjoy the
pics. But if memory
serves, didn’t they offer the 4 cyl engine in their
literature?Steve Anderson
SRAnderson
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[forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from SRAnderson sent Wed 2 Jan 2013:
Here you go
http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/xk120_early.html--
The original message included these comments:
Fascinating topic, and I really enjoy the pics. But if memory
serves, didn’t they offer the 4 cyl engine in their literature?
–
Marv James
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In reply to a message from Marv James sent Thu 3 Jan 2013:
It’s an interesting brochure to read.
My experience of pre war brochures is that they were drawn up
before the cars were ready and so tended to have the previous model
touched up to date by an artist. And so often pretty inaccurate.
I see the mention of the 2 litre being used in ‘‘sporting events’’.
I’m not sure what it would be competing with at about 105 HP [ the
same as the old 2 1/2 litre saloons and SS100s.]
But near the bottom, it lists weights and both the 120 and the 100
are listed as the same weight, 24 cwt, which seesm unlikely if
you’d chopped a third off the XK120 engine. It would tend to make
the whole excersise a bit pointless.
Also interestingly, Baileys notes in laaate 1952 mention a 5
bearing crankshaft, this says 3 bearings
It seems even after the XK100 it was still being developed.–
The original message included these comments:
Here you go
http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/xk120_early.html
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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