[xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from holland-rick@juno.com sent Sun 21 Aug 2016:

ahh well…fenders=wings…wings in USA come from Col Sanders
Kentucky Fried Chicken…and we have Buffalo wings which of
course do NOT come from a large beast, but are named for the
city where the hot sauce was added…so I still call the
bonnet…a top, the boot a trunk…right and left side not
near and off…but then on a boat I go down stairs…not
below…and besides stairs are supposed to be a ladder…
All 3 of the XK120s I have had came to me with the mirrors
out on the…wings…and on all 3 I removed them…but close
side vision does require head turning attention. Most race
cars have mirrors quite close to the driver. NUB120 photos
show a mirror closer. The bobine web site has an interesting
study on xk mirrors…but we stray from the thread topic…
and further astray…Spokane drivers are the worst I have
ever seen…slow, texting, hang back, fast in slow zones,
slow in fast zones…luckily I live just a bit in the
country.
Nick–
Nick53XK120S
Spokane WA, United States
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In reply to a message from Nick53XK120S sent Sat 20 Aug 2016:

Nick if you mean JCNA judges I suggest you ask them–this is not
the right forum. All chief judges for the clubs you may be
interested in attending events are listed with e mail and phone.
The JCNA chief judge (often a contributor here) is also listed as
are the rule books (which answer the question also). Best of luck!–
The original message included these comments:

the fenders seen so often…did any XK120 have them factory
installed? What do concourse judges rule…is it safety


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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Hey Rich

I did not know you secretly fancy the 140ies THAT much!!!

Best
The VikingOn 8/21/16, 11:18 PM, “owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of holland-rick@juno.com” <owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of holland-rick@juno.com> wrote:

Roger,

The wing mirrors are certainly not more “destructive” than the line
altering “ugliness” of the later 140 with it’s harsh 'amusement park"
like “bumpers”, barbecue like front grille and gaudy metal embellish
strips down the bonnet and boot.

Just kidding of course, but their beauty (any style, colo(u)r, model or
year) is in the eyes of the beholder!

Like Charles’ my DHC was fitted with wing mirrors. I have replaced the
originals with convex mirrors that “work” a bit, but I have not found the
“original” curvature that renders them quite useful.

Flat mirrors up there, IMHO are useless. Too much curvature (like mine)
severely confuses depth perception, however the very wide view is
useful…

Regards

Rick

Why destroy the clean-lines of an XK’s Fenders (Wings, Mudguards)

Roger Payne


Lottery Winner University (Sponsored by Content.Ad)
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Klaus,

I understand some of those have these bright blinding tail lights too!
Ugh!

You do know that I’m kidding (don’t you?)

Your cars are grand, but then there’s very serious fellows like Roger and
I love “pulling their chains”

It’s my job as the “Krmugn” and thankfully they are good sports too!

Regards,

Rick
On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 22:24:21 -0400 Klaus Nielsen
klausnielsen@earthlink.net writes:> Hey Rich

I did not know you secretly fancy the 140ies THAT much!!!

Best
The Viking

On 8/21/16, 11:18 PM, “owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of @holland-rick” <owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of @holland-rick> wrote:

Roger,

The wing mirrors are certainly not more “destructive” than the
line
altering “ugliness” of the later 140 with it’s harsh 'amusement
park"
like “bumpers”, barbecue like front grille and gaudy metal
embellish
strips down the bonnet and boot.

Just kidding of course, but their beauty (any style, colo(u)r,
model or
year) is in the eyes of the beholder!

Like Charles’ my DHC was fitted with wing mirrors. I have replaced
the
originals with convex mirrors that “work” a bit, but I have not
found the
“original” curvature that renders them quite useful.

Flat mirrors up there, IMHO are useless. Too much curvature (like
mine)
severely confuses depth perception, however the very wide view is
useful…

Regards

Rick

Why destroy the clean-lines of an XK’s Fenders (Wings,
Mudguards)

Roger Payne


Lottery Winner University (Sponsored by Content.Ad)
Lotto Winners Do This Before Buying A Ticket
Juno - Free Email

Elementary, My Dear Krmugn.
The brights allow you keep up with the 140 a little longer, despite it
disappearing beyond the horizon.:slight_smile:
Best
Klaus
See you next 1st TuesdayOn 8/23/16 12:33 AM, “owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of holland-rick@juno.com” <owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of holland-rick@juno.com> wrote:

Klaus,

I understand some of those have these bright blinding tail lights too!
Ugh!

You do know that I’m kidding (don’t you?)

Your cars are grand, but then there’s very serious fellows like Roger and
I love “pulling their chains”

It’s my job as the “Krmugn” and thankfully they are good sports too!

Regards,

Rick
On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 22:24:21 -0400 Klaus Nielsen
<@KWN> writes:

Hey Rich

I did not know you secretly fancy the 140ies THAT much!!!

Best
The Viking

On 8/21/16, 11:18 PM, “owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of holland-rick@juno.com” <owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of holland-rick@juno.com> wrote:

Roger,

The wing mirrors are certainly not more “destructive” than the
line
altering “ugliness” of the later 140 with it’s harsh 'amusement
park"
like “bumpers”, barbecue like front grille and gaudy metal
embellish
strips down the bonnet and boot.

Just kidding of course, but their beauty (any style, colo(u)r,
model or
year) is in the eyes of the beholder!

Like Charles’ my DHC was fitted with wing mirrors. I have replaced
the
originals with convex mirrors that “work” a bit, but I have not
found the
“original” curvature that renders them quite useful.

Flat mirrors up there, IMHO are useless. Too much curvature (like
mine)
severely confuses depth perception, however the very wide view is
useful…

Regards

Rick

Why destroy the clean-lines of an XK’s Fenders (Wings,
Mudguards)

Roger Payne


Lottery Winner University (Sponsored by Content.Ad)
Lotto Winners Do This Before Buying A Ticket
Juno - Free Email

Can I ask for one point of clarification regarding C-type heads? On page 76 of JAGUAR XK 120 EXPLORED, regarding engine numbers, Viart states: “Suffix Letter “S” denotes Cylinder Head is a C-Type (210 bhp) Only fitted on Special Equipment Cars with an “S” prefix Chassis Number”

Is this one of the errors Roger mentions, or did such cars exist?

I’ve seen one such matching numbers Special Equipment car with the “S” suffix stamped on the cylinder head, but not on the block, though the JDHT certificate showed both the “S” prefix chassis number and “S” suffix engine number.

The Heritage certificate for my car, S673080,also indicates both the “S” prefix chassis number and “S” suffix engine number, but my car has a replacement head.

Thank you

Yes, it is one of many such errors in Viart.
The S prefix chassis number and S suffix engine number stamped on both block and head indicates a Special Equipment package, generally including wire wheels, twin exhaust, higher lift cams, different distributor, different carb needles, and stiffer torsion bars, anti-roll bar and rear springs.
It did not include a C-Type head.
The part number of your head can be found on the exhaust underside, which you can try to read with a mirror, and will look something like this.
PICT0006
C6733 is a standard “A” type head.

Nick,
Where the confusion arises is that with XK120 Chassis and Engine Numbers, the S prefix, and -S suffix receptively denote being a “Special Equipment” package that although introduced high-lift camshafts and valve upgrades, still used basically the same A-type cylinder head as fitted to virtually ALL XK120s.
When the XK140 was introduced, the ‘standard’ car had no prefix/suffix letters, but this time there was again an optional Special Equipment package PLUS optional fitment of a C-type head (known in USA as XK140MC) that was given the S prefix and -S suffix to Chassis and Engine Numbers. So there are many, including Viart, who mistakenly assume the XK140 use of ‘S’ prefix/suffix denoting a C-type head can retrospectively be applied to an XK120SE - it doesnt.

hi…different Nick here…so for Roger…I recall that you now believe and have documented that at least a few…(very few…maybe 2 or so?) Xk120s did have original Factory works installed “C” Type (C7707) heads, verified by some kind of original documents, …but that no “on the car” serial or letter designation is made. Prior to this new research and discovery it was the opinion that no XK120 had a factory from assembly line C head, tho the C head did become available late in the run as a “spare part” to re-install.
Correct?
Nick

Thank you for the clarification. Is there a list of errors or corrections to Viart available? I refer to it often and I’d love to include a loose print out inside the front cover.

Nick,

The subject of C-type heads is most complex, with much confusion and misunderstandings, and indeed as noted earlier, most current books on XK120 Originality have simply got it totally WRONG.
Accordingly, I maintain a simple position that no new XK120 sold to a private customer, was ever fitted with a factory original C-type head.
As I said a simple position that covers 99.97% of all XK120s made, based on current proof/research and the fact there were some 12000 XK120s made.
The first complication is what exactly is a C-type head?
The very first ‘works’ C-types that raced at LeMans in 1951 had probably a standard XK120 A-type head to Special Equipment specification (Cams and valves), and was probably ‘blue-printed’, and was fitted with a standard XK120 Inlet Manifold and twin H6 (1-3/4in) carburetters, but manual choke versions, and not the Thermo-choke H6 carburetters as fitted to XK120/Mark VII.
After 1951 LeMans, a decision was made to ‘develop’ the C-type based on feedback of 1951 performance/competiveness etc, including the engine. The ‘Works’ C-types prepared for 1952 LeMans were significantly upgraded, including developing the cylinder-head, inlet manifold and carburetters. The cylinder head casting remained the standard XK120 A-type casting, but was hand modified to improve its power/torque potential, along with the newly developed 2inch H8 carburetters.
This June 1952 Engine, retrospectively had what I now refer to loosely as the first version C-type head, albeit Jaguar didn’t call it that - but lets now say this race/experimental head was the first C-type head, version C1.
Jaguar then decided that they wanted to compete in European Production Sports Car races, which required reasonable proof of putting the XK120C into ‘production’ and accordingly developed/built a batch of 50 ‘Production’ C-types. The cylinder head for these cars was a total new casting - Jaguar Part Number C.7700, that after machining and a certain amount of hand fettling was assembled up to be a C.7707 cylinder head (basic assembly - no valves/cams etc yet fitted). These heads as prepared especially for the ‘production’ C-type, were now identified by Jaguar as being the second (main) variant head, and were identified as C2. (Now I dont know, but I suspect C2 means second Competition head, not second C-type head, but it really doesn’t matter, lets just call them C2 heads).
Now these C2 heads are most probably what was offered via Service Bulletin 95B, as being available for XK120 owners wanting to upgrade their used XK120s (that had originally been delivered new/fitted with a normal XK120 A-type head) The reality is at most, a handful of C2 heads were actually sold/delivered, and then only to special or sponsored customers (by sponsored I mean on the strong recommendation of the Jaguar Distributor in the country where XK120 was being raced.
So there were at least 50 C2 heads made for all the production C-types, a ‘handful’ only sold to be fitted/upgraded used racing XK120s, plus works spares, plus ‘production’ C-type spares, and maybe a few more for special purposes/applications on other than C-types or racing XK120s. How many all up, no idea, and no one (I am aware of) has ever found any factory records advising quantity and disposition of C2 heads. At a guess, more that 50 total (definately), but less than 100 total (probably less than 75).
Now things went two directions now, the C2 head (C7700 casting) was further developed into the so called D-type head (as first seen in June 1954 LeMans), but there was also a decision to make a series production C-type head to be offered as a readily available optional extra on the new model XK140 as released/on sale from October 1954. This new ‘series production’ C-type head was now a revised casting C.7707, but on basic maching/assembly remained a C.7707 part number head assembly (again not counting all the later bolt-ons, like studs, camshafts, valves etc). These ‘third’ variant heads were now identified by factory as C3 heads, and indeed are readily identified/confirmed by having on the under-surface the cast in lettering C7707 and C3.
Now these C3 series-production heads as available from the introduction of the XK140 model only, were very much marketed as having C-type heads, but initially could only be readily identified by the new XK140 customer by being painted red, and indeed by having in a stamped in Engine Number with a -8S or -9S (or -7S) suffix. These 1954 and early 1955 made C3 heads did NOT have the large cast in letter ‘C’ in the spark plug valley. Now I speculate this caused a ‘marketing/customer satisfaction dilemma’ as all an XK120SE owner with his A-type head, with an Engine Number stamped -8S or -9S, had to do, was paint it red to impress his mates. So Jaguar decided from early 1955 to now also add a large cast ‘C’ in the spark plug valley, but with no other changes, these still C3 heads remained with C7707 and C3 cast on the underside. . Later in mid 1956, another minor change to the casting/associated machining prompted a part number upgrade to now be C7707/1, but underneath was now a cast C7707-1 and still C3 .

C7707 C3 heads became readily available either as a new spare part from Oct 1954 onwards, or indeed as a wrecked XK140MC used spare part.

So the question - were any XK120s ever fitted from new with a C-type head, the answer is a simple NO, if you are referring to the readily understood/identified/available third variant C7707 C3 C-type head.

But if you know exactly what you are looking for, there has been a small handful only C7700 C2 cylinder heads now found/confirmed not originally fitted to a ‘production’ C-type, so a spare-part head as per that offered under SB95B (to very special customers) and indeed three only that can confidently be determined as being fitted from new by the factory to a new (very special) customer XK120.

Thus stated SIMPLY in one sentence/breath - there were NO XK120s fitted with a C-type head from new as original equipment.

Yes, its possible that that number three may indeed increase, as indeed the number of C2 ‘Competition’ Heads supplied under SB95B to used/racing XK120s (and maybe other cars - Cooper Jaguar, Lister Jaguar and similar) may also increase from the current ‘small handful’, but keep in mind the very small window of opportunity - from mid/late 1952 up until 1954.

AS you can appreciate - there is a LOT more to all of this, and indeed ‘one day’ may well be written up/published with photos if/when it becomes a priority. Those really interested, I do talk to direct and compare notes/research/possible sightings.

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