89 XJS v12 (Marelli) 5 speed swap

A couple more questions: Apparently Autopro was bought out by Bosch, but the gauges appear to be just rebranded. Individual 1.5 in gauges aren’t available, only in three gauge sets. Other than Bosch, only Autometer ($$$$) and Equus appear to make 1.5" gauges. I can buy two sets of Bosch gauges for the price of 1.5 Autometer individual gauges. Equus doesn’t appear to make mechanical gauges.

Did you have any issue running the temp gauge capillary tubes? How long were they? Where did you run them thru the firewall?

It appears from your website that you are measuring temperature on one side at the front of the engine, and the other at the rear. Do you see a large temp variation as a result?

Thanks!

Jon

Hi Jon-
I bought two of the 3 packs to get two temp gauges. I looked at Equus as well and found them pricey. I personally like mechanical gauges, but modern electrics are just fine too. The problem is finding a 270d sweep, which I wanted. If you can find a 1.5" 270d sweep electric that would be cool (maybe Equus is the only option there…)

Yes I am measuring temp at two points. I do not see any variations more than an occasional 3-4 degrees, which is probably within the gauge margin of error. Most of the time they track spot on. I do not have any mods to my cooling system except for the dual electric fans. The stock temp gauge is still hooked up too.

Running the tubes was a PITA on the drivers (left) side. I believe I cut a new hole up high above the accelerator pedal somewhere… I don’t recall exactly. The tube was just long enough. The passenger side was easier, it goes thru the existing boot where the AC vac lines and other stuff comes thru.

I was initially concerned that these were “low quality” gauges and wouldn’t last or be reliable. But they have been just fine for several years now.

@gregma has a similar setup, he may have thoughts as well.

Regards
Bob

Thanks for the quick reply. You confirmed my suspicions about buying two gauge sets, and running the capillary tubes.

Jon

Yep, I installed the Equus gauges three years ago and am quite happy with them. Such a comfort knowing exactly what temp BOTH banks of the engine are running. And also the oil pressure gauge has shown me that the OEM barrel oil gauge is totally inaccurate. Actual pressure is ALWAYS higher than what it says.

The key is the size, not many 1.5" gauges out there. And I did not want mechanical, dealing with coolant and oil lines into the cabin. Yes, Equus are a bit more $, but IMO worth it.

Yeah, only get a 90 degree sweep, but I’m fine with that. What I like, when my engine is fully warmed up, it sits at 190-195F, and oil pressure is about 50 while driving. So I like looking over seeing all three needles pointing perfectly north. :slight_smile:


Those aren’t 180 degree sweep. They’re just a bit over 90 degree.

OOps, yeah. I was thinking of the display, not the sweep. Will correct above.

)I decided to do a temporary solution to my current ski slope and shifter set up, as welding up and refinishing the new ski slope I got from @Craig_Dearth going to take some time.

I keep several sheets of stiff plastic with a faux wrinkle finish around the garage, they are handy for little detail work. I figured I could shape one of those to cover up the big slot in the center of my ski slope, and figure out a boot set up as well. Here’s what I came up with, I think it looks pretty good for a temporary set up, until I get the new ski slope exactly how I want it.

I also upgraded to a nice 6 inch Sikky satin finished round shifter stick. Finally found one at Summit, that isn’t square, doesn’t have ridiculous CNC patterns on the side, isn’t flat like a Hurst shifter, etc. This is exactly what I wanted. Now I don’t have to make one.

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From afar and from those pictures Bob, it looks much, MUCH better than just a temporary set up :-))

Again, absolutely awesome job. Creativity on full display!!

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Looks much more than decent Bob. Nice work.

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I want to hear some stories of driving with this five speed/V12!

What is take off in 1st gear like?

What’s it like cruising at 60mph, downshifting to 3rd and punching it?

OK @gregma , here is an overly long post with everything I think about driving it!

After a week of driving the car, here is an update and some driving impressions. The short of it is that the manual transmission completely changed the personality of the car, more so than I expected. It continues to perform well with zero issues. If you like manual transmissions and you are NOT planning on converting your XJS, you maybe shouldn’t drive one that is a v12 manual :blush:.

Overall:
The car feels lighter and nimbler. I think this is because you can “go quicker” thru the gears while working the engine less. It is effortless to run every shift up to 3000+ RPM and do a nice smooth shift. With the TH400 I always felt I was flogging it a bit to make it perform, now it feels like it’s not even working. As with any manual vs. the older autos, having the engine directly hooked to the driveline (no torque converter) means that you feel exactly what is going on. It is a very connected feeling that I never had before in the XJS. It is very easy to drive, I immediately felt very confident with it. There is no weirdness to the way it shifts or handles. The car has gone from being a power cruiser to something closer to a sports car. Dipping a bit into the psychology, the driving experience is more focused, because there is more to keep track of. I have almost always driven manual transmission cars; but this is the first time I have taken a car that I drove a lot as an auto and converted it to a manual. The change in personality of the car, for the better, really surprised me. My expectations were exceeded. We took it out tonight and Rene’ drove it for the first time, she absolutely loves it. I was a little worried about shifter effort and placement, she said they are perfect for her. She handled the manual like she’d been driving the car for weeks, not minutes. She’s a good driver and good with a manual, but this is also a testament to how naturally a 5-speed pairs with the V12 XJS.

One additional very nice benefit is that the coolant temps are consistently about 10d cooler in both city and highway driving. Since nothing related to the cooling system was changed, this must be due to the combination of a few things:

  1. The engine is operating at less load / more efficiently. Around town I can select the gear that keeps it in the most efficient powerband, it’s not wasting effort churning ATF in the torque converter
  2. Lower RPM at cruise, on the freeway, I am at about 2100 rpm at 80mph vs. 3000+ before with the TH400
  3. The radiator no longer must also cool the trans fluid (OK I guess this is technically a cooling system change…)

Ergonomics:
For reference, I am 6’3”, 215lbs, size 13 feet. I have always had to drive the car with the seat a bit reclined. I have on my someday-list to re-engineer things to allow the seat to slide back a couple more inches, but it really doesn’t bother me.

The short shifter stick (6”) means that the shift effort is a bit high. I think it will loosen up a little with time, but it will never be OEM-light. Shifts are rock solid, no squishiness at all. At this point I don’t even think about it, and Rene’ had zero complaints. A longer shifter stick would help, but…

…the shifter location is perfect for me (and Rene’, as it turns out. She’s 5’7”.) I rest my arm on the console and the shifter is right there. Couldn’t be better. I do need to get rid of the cell phone hole in the console lid. It’s annoying. I have a new console lid, with no cell phone hole, out to Paul’s Jag for a recover. For now, I have a piece of foam stuffed in the cavity.

The top of the shifter ball travels 2 7/8” fore to aft, which feels like a fairly short throw. I kind of shift it with my wrist.

Clutch pedal effort is in line with a modern performance car. It feels about like my 2016 Mustang. Clutch pedal height is even with the brake pedal. Release point is about ¼ to 1/3 of the way off the floor, so you can modulate with your heel against the floor. That’s how I like it. There is no change in pedal pressure or sensation at the release point, which initially was weird for me. I kept trying to “feel” when the clutch would engage. After some wheel time I know where the release point is. Just as I come off the floor, I feed it some throttle and it’s right there.

I have to splay my knees just a bit to clear the steering wheel and run the clutch and brake, but I don’t really think about it. Someday I may look at a smaller diameter steering wheel, which would make ingress and egress a bit easier. Both are more difficult than with the auto, gotta put my big feet under the pedals as I fold myself in.

Heel-toe downshifts are a little awkward, a larger, flatter throttle pedal would help. Also on the someday list is a dead pedal. There isn’t quite enough room for my shoe between the clutch and the left kick panel, so I cock my foot just a little to put it underneath when there is not any shifting to be done. Maybe I will look at a dead pedal when I have the kick panel out to run speaker wires. Rene’ did comment that the clutch pedal felt a bit to the left for her taste. I wouldn’t want it any further to the right. Agree to disagree.

Bottom line is the controls are easy and comfortable to operate. Zero concerns, and frankly better than I expected. Sitting in the driver’s seat everything feels right. My Mustang has Recaro seats and is stupid-comfortable, it’s the gold standard for me. For me to be this happy with the Jag is saying something.

Drivability:
The aluminum flywheel means that the engine gains and drops RPM very quickly. On shifts, the RPMs drop like a rock when you lift, so I like to keep the RPMs up with a little throttle pressure.

(Dad actually swapped his Fidanza flywheel for an OEM Jag unit that weighs a lot more because he did not care for this behavior in the carbureted eType. It also makes standing starts a bit easier.)

I am glad I got the ECU mods done; I can totally see how ECU cutting fuel injection on closed-throttle (standard on the auto trans) would cause stalling.

Warm up idle speed, courtesy of the AAV, is up from about 1000rpm before to about 1100 now. No torque converter drag, I guess.

On the very first drive I got some significant clutch chatter, which quickly went away. You can see in post #119 that the flywheel has some sort of green protective coating on it. I think once that wore off all was good.

Standing starts require just a bit of finesse to be really smooth. Nothing unreasonable, it’s just a matter of learning what the car wants, like you would with any manual. Managing the release point by pedal position vs. by feel makes things easier. I pride myself on being “above average” with a manual, so I am pretty self-deprecating when I don’t do it right. Being a passenger when the driver doesn’t really “get” how the manual trans works is no fun. Rene’ won’t put up with that crap, we’ll be switching seats so she can demonstrate the proper technique :blush:.

Performance:
Gears 1-4 feel close ratio, although numerically they are not. I think it’s mostly due to the v12 feeling effortless from 2500 RPM and 5500 RPM and beyond, it’s equally smooth and happy to work anywhere in that range. Leave the light, shift shift and you’re going 65 MPH… wait this is a 45 zone… It’s a constant, spirited acceleration. Passengers say “I can’t believe how smooth this is …”

Acceleration is quite good. I didn’t take any 0-60 times because frankly I am not going to beat the car that hard. More useful acceleration, say from 60-80 in 3rd gear, is very good and very satisfying. It’s interesting (and fun) how you think you are pulling hard and as the tach goes past about 4000 it pulls even harder. You are going fast with minimal drama before you know it.

Approximate speeds at 2500 rpm:
1st: 18mph
2nd: 28mph
3rd: 40mph
4th: 54mph
5th: 85mph

NVH (Noise, vibration, harshness)
The trans has some gear whine. Not excessive, and it’s what I expected, but it’s not silent. It will get a bit quieter as it breaks in. It sounds like every other T5 I’ve been around. In the lower gears it almost sounds like an electric motor spooling up.

You can feel a bit of road vibration thru the shifter, again, not excessive. The shifter does move a little over bumps and uneven roads, which is good. That tells me the trans mount is working. My exhaust is a bit louder than stock, and it of course sounds much better shifting at 3500 RPM every time than the lower shifts of the old setup.

So far, at least up to 100mph, I have not detected any high-frequency vibrations, and the pinon seems quiet, which is good. My seal change apparently didn’t muck anything up. Very smooth at higher speed.

This car has GAZ adjustable shocks, set at 3 out of 20 for stiffness, which puts them about 10% stiffer than stock per the butt-o-meter (20 is the max setting.) Any stiffer is just annoying and feels wrong with the stock springs. It also has poly bushes on the front sway bar links. This combo feels good with this trans, the “firmness and feel” of everything seems to match up well. I think the car wallows less in the corners. That should be the case with the reduced weight. Having said all that, I don’t beat the car. I try to drive in what I would call a “smooth and spirited” manner, not harsh or aggressive.

That was a lot, thank you for reading this far! If I haven’t made it clear already, this conversion was well worth it. It’s like I have a new car. I want to drive it all the time.

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OK, Bob, you’re ready for the ultimate standing start. I did mine so long ago that nobody had smartphones, today’s a different day, we want to see this on video! Warm up the car, pull to a stop on a long straight level deserted road, and shut the engine off. Put the shifter in 5th, leave your foot off the clutch pedal, put your foot lightly on the gas, and turn the key to start. You’ll have to hold the starter on until the car reaches walking speed or so. And once you’ve released the starter, you can probably go ahead and give it full throttle – all the way up to 100+.

[quote=“BobPhx, post:194, topic:415375”]
The car feels lighter and nimbler.
[…]
The aluminum flywheel means that the engine gains and drops RPM very quickly. [/quote]

replacing the torque converter by a lightweight flywheel must the key :
less rotational mass helps the engine to rev more easily, and the car feels like it’s lighter
iirc there’s an 6.5 ratio between saved rotational mass and real mass of the car,

thanks for sharing your experience

Well Bob, again I/we can’t thank enough for a great journey. I have been working on my project for years. Which is of my own pleasure. Loved these cars since high school (late 70’s). Always thought it had more potential as a GT than what they produced. After 10 or so years my car has come off jack stands and currently working on tuning (standalone computer) fuel maps are not readily handy for v12’s.
Anyway, while watching your build, low and behold a Keisler TKO 5 speed donor car showed up for sale. And yes, my project know continues.
Thank you I think :rofl:





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Awesome! I like why you did with the dash. Looking forward to seeing this come together. You will love it.

Lots of great stuff under the hood too. Very nice!

nib,
What seats are those? I’ve been looking for something better for my '87, that I sit in, rather than on. Would also like a slightly lower seating position since I’m 6’5". It looks like what you’ve got might fit the bill.

Jon

Ah yes, the seats. These are Corbeau A4 (not wide). The problem is the original seat mounts are way too high and to wide. I found no way to use them. So, I removed the mounts (spot weld drill). The forward area of the seat has a cross member that was still too high so had to cut back and weld new structure. The basic issue was the new seats sat to high for my liking. I fabed the new mounts to get as low as possible. It worked out well, I think. More modern seats have a quit high back and to make them work in these cars you have to lower the whole seat with not a lot room to work with. The new frame I made is slightly angled up which works well for shorter people. Travel is way good 5-footer to 6+ seems to work. These pics might help.




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Thanks. Good writeup.

What all was wrong with that donor car? Looks pretty nice in the picture.