Drive your car! (Is Ethanol evil?)

E-Type
41

Hi Jerry,

on the build and dyno sheets for this motor it specs 98, which i am assuming is Premium 98 in Oz.

Many high compression cars require it

I do not have all the details of this engine, but i suspect its built higher than 9:1

there is something not quite right with the motor, and it may be pinging, still fettling after much work on the vehicle

use 91-95 pump gas on my 8:1 Jag motors

42

OK my 2 cents. How can there be such a variety of ethanol experiences? I do believe Ethanol fuel is the devil (maybe even global warming too). But it needs accomplices to realize it’s full evil. Those accomplices are moisture and ignorance. If you live in a dry environment, you’re lucky and ahead of the game.

Modern cars have sealed fuel systems: Tanks are vented through charcoal filters and have monitoring systems that tell you IF the cap is loose. They are mostly trouble and moisture free.

Vintage cars obviously do not have sealed fuel systems. They often are stored with fuel tanks that are not 3/4 or full. This allows condensation to form within the tank. Additionally they are often stored in concrete floor garages that foster condensation and a moist environment due to temperature changes. Lets throw in some materials that may not be compatible with ethanol and fuel systems (tanks, pipes, carb parts) that haven’t been flushed & cleaned in decades for additional fun.

Power equipment & boats: All the above - plus we fuel them from vented, small containers that sit on cold concrete floors, never get cleaned out, and often have very old fuel.
Marine - could there be a more hostile environment for a moisture absorbing fuel? Personally, I introduced 15 gals of E-10 into a 25 gal plastic tank. After cleaning or replacing the entire fuel system (except the built in tank), disassembling/cleaning the outboard’s fuel injection system it still wouldn’t run. I had to dispose of 20+ gals of phase separated bad fuel.

My takeaways:

  1. Everyone’s situation is different - that’s why we see a variety of experiences both positive and negative.
  2. Use the E type’s fuel tank sump to your advantage. Use the fuel pump to pump the tank dry (into a clean container) and unscrew and clean the sump. At least use the fuel drain. There’s only a couple ounces left. Do it once a year. I’ve never had an ethanol issue in my E. Don’t be afraid to add additional fuel filter to your car’s system either.
  3. Empty and clean fuel storage tanks. Dump unused fuel into your auto. Leave the tank dry and clean.
  4. Use fresh fuel when ever possible. Do not store unleaded in a partially full container store on cold concrete, tighten caps tight. Outside storage? Fogetaboutit!
  5. Never use E-10 in a marine engine.
2 Likes
43

Geeze Ray, where have you been??

44

Sounds like Houston weather.

I’m not arguing with you but I’m finding it difficult to understand how you got 10% better gas mileage when the difference in energy content between a gallon of E10 and undiluted gasoline is about 3%. Any chance you subconsciously altered your driving habits?

FWIW, I’m not a big fan of E10 fuel either, but as I stated earlier I’ve never had a problem with it.

45

Tony,

Gee, of course. I don’t figure Oz uses the dumb CLC octane system, does it? That must be unique to the US.

Jerry

46

Seems we have to go through this debate every year or so. I’ve stopped to fuel up (not in the E-type) several times at the Exxon station in Mansfield PA where you’ll find this sticker on the pumps:

image.jpg1024×768 183 KB

“Enriched”? Um. Not so sure about that. “Adulterated” a better past participle? That may be a bit off too. All I know is the E-type really likes Shell V-Power ethanol free fuel. However, if you read Shell’s own promotional material on the formulation they use the word “ethanol” only once, and then only to say that the fuel doesn’t contain it, leaving the customer to form his own conclusions or exercise his own prejudices.

Then, of course, there are famous California-based gearheads who hate the stuff:

1 Like
47

Interesting presentation. Looks like, in part, they are kind of trying to convince the motorist that buying premium when regular is specified by the automobile manufacturer is a smart thing to do. If one consistently buys Top Tier brand of gas they should have no problems. Top tier brands include 76, Aloha Petroleum, Amoco, ARCO, Beacon, BP, Break Time, Cenex, Chevron, CITGO, Conoco, Co-op, Costco, CountryMark, Diamond Shamrock, Entec, Esso, Express, Exxon, Holiday, Kwik Star Stores, Kwik Trip, Mahalo, MFA, Mobil, Ohana Fuels, Petro-Canada, Phillips 66, PUMA, QT, Quik Trip, Road Ranger, Shamrock, Shell / Shell V-Power, Sinclair Standard, SuperAmerica, SuperFuels, Tempo, Texaco, Tri-Par, and Valero. Plus many private label stations sell fuel provided by the above; Kroger, for example, is selling Shell gasoline.

48

…and… they are so close that a very minor advancing of the timing will compensate for the difference.
LLoyd (advance because lower octane burns faster which creates pinking)

49

You don’t have to find ethanol destructive in your own car to think the law requiring ethanol in gasoline is dumb.

Jerry

1 Like
50

The missing poodle iswas count. Little guy slipped out and met a car. Sad,

Carl

51

Nick:

I had to durn near laugh out loud, “enriched”. I was thinking, “diluted”.

All. [points:, one easy, the other, might get me 'reprimanded".

  1. I was messing with the HF sourced Predator one banger that powers my chipper/shredder. It is a CA version. A closed tank vent, no less!!! It runs great on E10. My tow cycles not so much.

  2. As I recall an additive to combat 'water" in the gas tank is actually alcohol aka Ethanol. Absorbed and the engine burns it. Solved. But, left for periods, the “solution” parts and water remains. Not good.

  3. Ethanol use reduces the use of fossil fuel. A cleaner air???
    One state raises a crop that converts to Ethanol. Here is where I stop and leave it to the imagination so as to stay out of trouble.

  4. My two cars digest 87 laced with up to 10% just fine.

  5. Some older cars had soft hoses and diaphrams that do not do well in Ethanol.

  6. Race cars thrive on Ethanol.

Off to errands before the F’s get up there!!!
Carl

52

While there is an argument that adding ethanol to gasoline does stretch fuel stocks I understand the main reason is the because MTBE was banned as a way to oxygenate gasoline. The Clean Air act decreed that there must me a certain percentage of oxygen in gasoline to reduce emissions. MTBE was found to be contaminating ground water, subsequently banned and ethanol was used instead. Corn producers and ethanol producers benefit; both carry some political clout in their respective states. Unfortunately I don’t think there is any cheaper way to oxygenate gasoline, so as long as the requirement is in place we are more or less stuck with E10.

53

John:

I don’t have any problem with it. Absoutely better than MTBE.

Or is it? Older underground tanks leaked. It was tolerated for years. Dumb, yeah, but we learn. CA got them all out or merely abandoned. In my former career, I investigated a bunch of those “contamination” claims. an idiosyncrasy in policy exclusions drove the mission. Now, with better tanks ands complex monitoring systems, acquifer contamination is more or less gone. OTH, any MTBE contamination is too much.

Are there other “crops” that can yield it. Yes, there are.

Carl.

.

54

Indeed. I found this on Wikipedia.

If someone had asked me “Which plant will yield more ethanol, with less greenhouse footprint, corn or poplar?” I’d have laid money on corn.

1 Like
55

Ethanol use is a political thing. A heavy subsidy for big corn growers and a federal requirement to mix ethanol. E10 is a disaster for marine use. Older boat with fiberglass tanks were the worst, since ethanol is a solvent for Polyester. I will use E10, but will not store the car with it.

56

I think the whole E10 thing is overblown. I’ve been using it in newer cars, older cars, my old lawnmower, my pressure washer…you name it…for 20+ years and haven’t had any problems.

I’m not saying that E10 can’t cause a problem…particularly in some damp storage situations… but I think it has become an all-too-convenient whipping post and is summarily blamed for any fuel system problem without considering any other possible cause.

I work with stored cars all day long…a dry, climate controlled storage environment, mind you…and have jumped into cars with 2-3 year old E10 gas and they’ve fired right up and drove well. Perhaps not optimally, but I wouldn’t expect any 2-3 year old gas to be optimal, with or without ethanol.

I’m reminded of the days when leaded gas was being phased out and everyone thought the sky had fallen. It hadn’t. Millions of old cars soldiered on perfectly well, for years, with lead-free gas.

Cheers
DD

57

Nine years ago drove the E from Indiana to California. Immediately put car in storage unit in hot and dry Corona Ca. Car sat there untouched for 15 months, upon start-up ran very rough. Drained tank put in fresh gas and all was good. Have had other experiences where gas just goes bad too quickly. Have an XK8 that has been sitting for years and again will drain before start-up.

Glenn
70E

58

Jerry,

First, not my figures but from our Government ! ! ! One can research, on
line, and find many different figures. Depending on how you drive, using
Regular gas verses E10, results in a

In a message dated 7/15/2017 2:30:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
noreply@jag-lovers.com writes:

 _mouton_ (http://forums.jag-lovers.com/u/mouton)  _Jerry  Mouton_

(http://forums.jag-lovers.com/u/mouton)
July 15

Dick_Wells:
Better gas mileage is achieved via Regular Gas verses Ethanol 10 due to
the energy (BTU’s) per gallon.
Dick,
Am I missing something here? Your figures show ethanol fuel only 1.8%
lower in kcal/liter. That is not much difference! That is less than 0.5 MPG at
20 MPG.
Jerry

59

Dick,

Right, I meant the figures you presented. And if you use them you come up with the numbers I came up with, or did I make a mistake? No need for the internet, just a calculator, no?

Jerry

60

Jerry,

Bad computer (or fat fingers ! ! !), Continuing - Fuel MPG
differences range anywhere from 5% to 20% increased MPG’s with regular gasoline.
Some sites show Regular Gas as 114,000 BTU’s and Ethanol 10 as low as 74,000
BTU’s per gallon.

E10 was the political correction to the industry MTBE use. As a side
effect, less MPG equals more gallons sold, equals more taxes taken in.

As an aircraft owner, I can use Regular gasoline to power my 1947 Stinson
but Ethanol is forbidden. Why, water in E10 can freeze in the fuel line.
Not good.

The chart I copied to Jag-Lovers is but one of many used to either justify
or trash the adoption and use of Ethanol laced fuels. My “E” is only fed
Regular gas, sometimes some 100LL aviation gas mixed in as well.

Dick

In a message dated 7/15/2017 2:30:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
noreply@jag-lovers.com writes:

 _mouton_ (http://forums.jag-lovers.com/u/mouton)  _Jerry  Mouton_

(http://forums.jag-lovers.com/u/mouton)
July 15

Dick_Wells:
Better gas mileage is achieved via Regular Gas verses Ethanol 10 due to
the energy (BTU’s) per gallon.
Dick,
Am I missing something here? Your figures show ethanol fuel only 1.8%
lower in kcal/liter. That is not much difference! That is less than 0.5 MPG at
20 MPG.
Jerry