[E-Type] Brake hoses-stainless steel braided?

E-Type
1

Is this overkill? As my brake rebuild approached the
national debt (before Bush) in scope, today while bleeding
the system the rear flexible line sprung a leak…no two
leaks, one at each end! I guess that this hose and probably
the ones up front are tired. Soo… gotta get new hoses all
around. Terrys has stainless steel braided replacement
hoses-but at a bit of a premium. Should I bother? Just go
back with factory ones?

Bob–
'69 2+2 , '69 OTS
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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2

Bob,

Go with the braided, the improvement on my brakes, when I changed was
fantastic, another tip that I picked up the genius’s on this list, is to
change your servo hose’s, cheap to do, and also gives a vast improvement
on braking. Make sure you use servo hose, coolant hose tends to collapse
under vacuum.

Andy Deegan-----Original Message-----
From: owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Moore
Sent: 28 August 2005 19:45
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [E-Type] Brake hoses-stainless steel braided?

Is this overkill? As my brake rebuild approached the national debt
(before Bush) in scope, today while bleeding the system the rear
flexible line sprung a leak…no two leaks, one at each end! I guess
that this hose and probably the ones up front are tired. Soo… gotta get
new hoses all around. Terrys has stainless steel braided replacement
hoses-but at a bit of a premium. Should I bother? Just go back with
factory ones?

Bob

'69 2+2 , '69 OTS
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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3

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Sun 28 Aug 2005:

I replaced my fronts with regular hoses and is quite alright.
Should last another 35 years easy.

                                   Walter--

The original message included these comments:

Is this overkill? As my brake rebuild approached the
around. Terrys has stainless steel braided replacement
hoses-but at a bit of a premium. Should I bother? Just go

–
Walter Schuster 78XJ6LFI Ser.II, 69Eser.II 2+2
Albuquerque/New Mexico, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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4

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Sun 28 Aug 2005:

Bob,

I’m with Andy. The braided hoses (good quality ones as Terry must
sell) will give generally firmer pedal response. Best reason is
that the old hoses very often collapse internally when very old and
lock the brakes on. Yes, I know, this should be very rare, but we
have heard several listers – many listers with this problem.

One thing to watch out for with the braided hoses is that they are
very abrasive in motion, and if they foul anything they can wear it
very badly. Also make sure that they are installed with no twist
when the wheels are in full loaded position, as they are quite
stiff and I worry they can wear more quickly if preloaded with
twist.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton
Palo Alto, California, United States
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5

Happened to me, this year…
From now on, this is one of the first things I suspect when brakes seem to be staying on.
LLoyd

… Best reason is

that the old hoses very often collapse internally when very old and
lock the brakes on. Yes, I know, this should be very rare, but we
have heard several listers – many listers with this problem.

Jerry
–
Jerry Mouton

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6

My “regular hoses” lasted about ten years, not adequate. I wonder if they were of poor quality? Bought them at a local parts store.
LLoyd

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Sun 28 Aug 2005:

I replaced my fronts with regular hoses and is quite alright.
Should last another 35 years easy.

                                   Walter

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7

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 29 Aug 2005:

Interesting…what brought about this rebuild is that my
rear brakes locked on and fried the calipers. Could this
have been the cause?

Bob–
The original message included these comments:

I’m with Andy. The braided hoses (good quality ones as Terry must
sell) will give generally firmer pedal response. Best reason is
that the old hoses very often collapse internally when very old and
lock the brakes on. Yes, I know, this should be very rare, but we
have heard several listers – many listers with this problem.

–
'69 2+2 , '69 OTS
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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8

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Mon 29 Aug 2005:

Bob,

Mmmmm, could be! (to quote Bugs Bunny).

It’s one of the two or three causes for E Type rear brake lockup.

FWIW, these hoses must work well, because using them is one of the
very few upgrades allowed in SCCA Stock category autocross (for
older cars only). Safety issue, as I read it.

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

Interesting…what brought about this rebuild is that my
rear brakes locked on and fried the calipers. Could this
have been the cause?
Bob

–
Jerry Mouton
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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9

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 29 Aug 2005:

When buying stainless braided, one of the things to look for is
that they have a plastic sleeve over the stainless. This avoids
the abrasion problem. The Goodridge hoses I just installed on my
Ferrari and that I previously put on the '69 OTS have a coating
over the stainless. I’ve been very pleased with the Goodridge
products. Not sure what Terry’s sells, but ask about the covering.

And, as Jerry points out, when you install them, you must be sure
that you don’t twist them. The instructions that come with the
hoses usually warns against that.

Regards,
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

One thing to watch out for with the braided hoses is that they are
very abrasive in motion, and if they foul anything they can wear it
very badly. Also make sure that they are installed with no twist
when the wheels are in full loaded position, as they are quite
stiff and I worry they can wear more quickly if preloaded with
twist.
Jerry

–
Steve Weinstein
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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10

Steve Weinstein said: -
:When buying stainless braided, one of the things to look for is that
they have a plastic sleeve over the stainless. This avoids the abrasion
problem."

True about the abrasion, those things are like a saw if you have them
against aluminium (my Brit-bike, for instance) but pick up “crud” very
quickly and are difficult to keep clean - if you care about such things,
which admittedly, I don’t.

But just purchase the most convenient/cheapest versions (mine were
inexpensive but TUV rated, so should be good quality) and I simply
covered them with heat shrink sleeving. If you go for a polyolefin (the
“cheap” version, this is basically XLPE) then the recovery temperature
will be less than 130C, so the substrate will be cooler and there is no
risk of damaging the hose (if there is, then these are NOT the hoses for
brakes!!!). I chose black for the E, as this is inconspicuous and
doesn’t make it seem as though one is trying to emulate the “rice
rocket” crowd. I did try to get a little more “flash” with the hoses for
the bike and covered them with Kynar (very oil resistant, tough, etc.,)
but although I had hoped the sleeving would be more transparent than
translucent, I was disappointed and they look too yellow, but do the
job.

There is a myriad of heat shrink options available, those coated with
adhesives, high temperature (if you feel like the exotic, go for
Viton!!!), thick wall (not advisable on an application requiring maximum
flexibility), even ZeroHal (expensive, don’t like oils but the “Green”
crowd should love them and if you ever set light to your pride and joy,
you’ll know that at least the brake hoses won’t be polluting the
environment - of course, there is the wiring, tyres, etc…), and a
plethora of colours - should be enough to meet most people’s
expectations.

John (the heat shrink guru…).

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11

I bought a set from CJ, no sleeves. Don’t see any reason one couldn’t put a sleeve on them tho. Might be a little sloppy but so what. Good idea.
pauls 67ots

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 29 Aug 2005:

When buying stainless braided, one of the things to look for is
that they have a plastic sleeve over the stainless. This avoids
the abrasion problem. The Goodridge hoses I just installed on my
Ferrari and that I previously put on the '69 OTS have a coating
over the stainless. I’ve been very pleased with the Goodridge
products. Not sure what Terry’s sells, but ask about the covering.

And, as Jerry points out, when you install them, you must be sure
that you don’t twist them. The instructions that come with the
hoses usually warns against that.

Regards,
Steve
<<<<<<<<<<<

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Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.phpFrom: “Steve Weinstein” srw_jags@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Brake hoses-stainless steel braided?

12

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Mon 29 Aug 2005:

John,

That’s a cool solution. Currently I just put a short length of
split rubber hose as a buffer where it could conceivably rub…
Next time, heat shrink!

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

But just purchase the most convenient/cheapest versions (mine were
inexpensive but TUV rated, so should be good quality) and I simply
covered them with heat shrink sleeving. If you go for a polyolefin (the

–
Jerry Mouton
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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13

In reply to a message from Steve Weinstein sent Mon 29 Aug 2005:

Well, I’ll let you guys know what I get-I ordered the
braided hoses today from Terry’s. Didn’t know to ask if they
were coated. Will have to deal with that when they come. I
don’t have any worry about the rear hose rubbing since it
seems to just arc from the body to the rear cage and not
come near touching anything. The front ones I will have to
be a bit more careful with. Thanks for the advice on
twisting. I was aware that they had to be put on straight.

Bob–
The original message included these comments:

When buying stainless braided, one of the things to look for is
that they have a plastic sleeve over the stainless. This avoids
the abrasion problem. The Goodridge hoses I just installed on my
Ferrari and that I previously put on the '69 OTS have a coating
over the stainless. I’ve been very pleased with the Goodridge
products. Not sure what Terry’s sells, but ask about the covering.
And, as Jerry points out, when you install them, you must be sure
that you don’t twist them. The instructions that come with the
hoses usually warns against that.

–
'69 2+2 , '69 OTS
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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14

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Sun 28 Aug 2005:

I never liked braided brake cables except for racing where the
cables get changed pretty often and the stiffer pedal and abrasion
resistance is reassuring. I like to be able to look at a cable and
see what its condition is, the stainless hides this. Brake cables
should be replaced about every 10 years or 100K miles anyway.
Braided ones will crack and stiffen (same rubber and it ages the
same way) in 10 years, you just cannot see it, a big negative! The
primary reason calipers seize is primarily due to the hygroscopic
nature of the fluid which absorbs water right through the hoses and
reservoir, the moisture in the fluid corrodes the piston surface
and creates friction until the piston doesn’t move. The other thing
that happens is the corroded rough piston surface grinds away the
seal and it begins to leak. Unless you change fluid about every 2
years, you stand the chance of a seizure. The time you get varies
with the piston material and finish, the type of fluid, the
condition of the seals and the humidity of the environment. As
usual, I always go with factory specs on a car like an E unless you
are racing or have some other special needs. These go-fast goodies
like braided cables, fancy brake fluids, drilled rotors, hi-perf
pads and such are useless and even problematic on a street car used
to tool over to the drive-in smartly.–
The original message included these comments:

Is this overkill? As my brake rebuild approached the
around. Terrys has stainless steel braided replacement
hoses-but at a bit of a premium. Should I bother? Just go
back with factory ones?

–
Brian Caro 96XJ6 4.0 63E-TypeS1FHC
Newport News, VA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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15

In reply to a message from Brian Caro sent Tue 30 Aug 2005:

Brian,

The harder pedal is just as nice on the road as on track.

You can’t really tell the condition of the rubber hoses by looking
from the outside

The stainless braided hoses are not rubber at all, but teflon hose
protected by stainless, so they really don’t have to be inspected
for ‘‘perishing’’. That’s one of the big advantages. They don’t
crack or stiffen like rubber ones do, teflon is inert.

Seizing calipers is not the problem being addressed. That never
(to my knowledge) results in brakes locking on, since the symptom
is the opposite: pistons don’t move, so no brakes at all. But the
rubber hoses break inside and block return of fluid out of the
caliper, then the fluid expands with heat, then the brakes go on
harder… etc. This will never occur with the teflon hoses.
(There may be other problems, but I have never heard of any). To
my knowledge there should never be a reason to change those braided
hoses again.

I agree in general with your preferences for factory standards, but
there are a few places it makes a significant difference without
changing the car’s character, such as especially high temp brake
fluid, better pads, and braided hoses. And they are not
problematic at all (save brake squeal from certain pads).

If you only use an E Type to putter over to the drive-in, man, are
you missing the point! YMMV ; -)

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton
Palo Alto, California, United States
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16

Brian wrote: " As usual, I always go with factory specs on a car like an E unless you are racing or have some other special needs. These go-fast goodies like braided cables, fancy brake fluids, drilled rotors, hi-perf pads and such are useless and even problematic on a street car used to tool over to the drive-in smartly."+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For a lot, probably most of the aftermarket upgrade stuff, I would agree with you. But I think you have to also keep in mind that these cars were built to a price and employ 40+ year old technology. Would Jaguar have installed the braided steel and Teflon brake lines on their cars had they been available and competitively priced in the 60’s? Might have, if the factory could have saved a nickel. Some go fast goodies are an absolute waste of money (cough-K&N-cough) while others are bought and installed simply for bragging rights -billet this and carbon fiber that (Yes, I know those materials have their place, but do we really benefit from billet radio knobs?). Others may very well have a practical value and might be considered a worthwhile upgrade.

It’s a personal choice, just like the decision to “invest” in a 60’s muscle car instead of a foreign exotic there is no right or wrong (as long as the part if fit for purpose of course).

John Walker

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17

In reply to a message from mouton sent Tue 30 Aug 2005:

You are right about the teflon hose material in braided lines, it
is durable and the hose is a good product, I just like to see the
hose condition, just personal preference. I also have an aversion
to racy looking aftermarket parts on my cars, but that’s just a
personal issue.

Robert Moore asked about the brakes freezing on, I hoped you
wouldn’t mind that I tried to answer him at the same time. As far
as brakes sticking on I wish it was true that sticking pistons
can’t do it, it would have saved the fire I had in my brakes last
year from the piston sticking the brake on while driving. I have
had more than one piston seizure over the years, it is a flatbed
trip and a pair of new calipers and pads each time. The last one
was my XJ6 and it was caused by a bad brake job where the piston
boot was pulled loose by some ham fisted dealer tech during the
cars first brake pad replacement at 40,000 miles, letting moisture
into the piston area and corroding the surface until it stuck on.

The problematic issue of high perf brakes is that they can squeal
and can take more pressure until they get good and hot. They are
made for high performance and this is acceptable in race
conditions. Since there are all grades of these parts, some are
more forgiving than others.

As for puttering, I would just as soon polish and look at my cars
and bikes as drive them, just personal preference.–
The original message included these comments:

Seizing calipers is not the problem being addressed. That never
(to my knowledge) results in brakes locking on, since the symptom
is the opposite: pistons don’t move, so no brakes at all. But the
changing the car’s character, such as especially high temp brake
fluid, better pads, and braided hoses. And they are not
problematic at all (save brake squeal from certain pads).
If you only use an E Type to putter over to the drive-in, man, are
you missing the point! YMMV ; -)

–
Brian Caro 96XJ6 4.0 63E-TypeS1FHC
Newport News, VA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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18

As I said in my previous thread, I think the upgrade to braided is a
cheap brake performance improvement,
If I can stop 10 yards quicker, when a child runs in front of me, or a
car pulls out, Then…its money and time well spent!

I like to enjoy my Car on a daily basis if possible, (weather dependent)
if I have to change something that has worn out, (tyres brakes etc) I go
with the up to date technology! If you cant see it…why not? It’s not
like where putting some big daft alloy wheels on them is it?

Mind you!!! A carbon fibre bonnet might look quite cool, LOL…probably
cheaper as well!

Andy-----Original Message-----
From: owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Walker, John JR SITI-ITCROA
Sent: 30 August 2005 15:15
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Brake hoses-stainless steel braided?

Brian wrote: " As usual, I always go with factory specs on a car like an
E unless you are racing or have some other special needs. These go-fast
goodies like braided cables, fancy brake fluids, drilled rotors, hi-perf
pads and such are useless and even problematic on a street car used to
tool over to the drive-in smartly."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For a lot, probably most of the aftermarket upgrade stuff, I would agree
with you. But I think you have to also keep in mind that these cars
were built to a price and employ 40+ year old technology. Would Jaguar
have installed the braided steel and Teflon brake lines on their cars
had they been available and competitively priced in the 60’s? Might
have, if the factory could have saved a nickel. Some go fast goodies
are an absolute waste of money (cough-K&N-cough) while others are bought
and installed simply for bragging rights -billet this and carbon fiber
that (Yes, I know those materials have their place, but do we really
benefit from billet radio knobs?). Others may very well have a
practical value and might be considered a worthwhile upgrade.

It’s a personal choice, just like the decision to “invest” in a 60’s
muscle car instead of a foreign exotic there is no right or wrong (as
long as the part if fit for purpose of course).

John Walker

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19

In a message dated 8/30/2005 7:56:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bcaro@cmlarchs.com writes:
I wish it was true that sticking pistons
can’t do it, it would have saved the fire I had in my brakes last
year from the piston sticking the brake on while driving.

What caused the pistons to stick?

Mike Moore

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20

In a message dated 8/30/2005 7:56:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bcaro@cmlarchs.com writes:

I just like to see the
hose condition, just personal preference.

Brian, the hose failures I have had were undetectable from observation on
the outside. They looked pretty good!

Best,
Mike Moore

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