[E-Type] New teflon front seal

OK Guys, the Woodruff key is out. And I am the proud owner of
ViseGrips with concave jaws and serrated teeth.

I hate to be so dumb, but I want to get this right. The directions
that come with the teflon front seal dont seem to apply if the
timing chain cover is on, and the new distance piece has no
directions at all. I assume that I remove the plastic installation
sleeve that the manufacturer warns against removing, and put the
seal in place. Then I slide on the distance piece with the nice
bevel going into the seal. That puts the Oring in front.

Is this correct?

Thanks -Curt–
Curt Johnson 67 E-type S1 FHC, 57 TBird, 53 MG TD
Corvallis OR, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 11 Mar 2008:

Yes, spot on.

You got your woodruff key out that quickly…lucky bugger!–
Dagenham
San Diego, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 11 Mar 2008:

Curt
It has been a long time since I put that teflon seal on and my
memory a little fuzzy, but I believe that you do not remove plastic
piece from seal. That piece is used to slide seal on to shaft.
Correct me if wrong.

Glenn Wior
70 E–
The original message included these comments:

directions at all. I assume that I remove the plastic installation
sleeve that the manufacturer warns against removing, and put the
seal in place. Then I slide on the distance piece with the nice


melloyello
evansville indiana, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 11 Mar 2008:

OK Guys, now that I have cut off the oil thrower, I can see that it
must go together as described. The end of the next Woodruff key
sticks out and must go into the relief in the distance piece. I
wondered what the relief was for!

Glenn, the problem here is that I am putting the distance piece
into the teflon seal rather than the seal onto the distance piece.

Sorry -Curt–
Curt Johnson 67 E-type S1 FHC, 57 TBird, 53 MG TD
Corvallis OR, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 11 Mar 2008:

Yes, the relief in the spacer it to provide room for the second
woodruff key.

Despite being very careful, I managed to pinch the o-ring the first
time I put the spacer on and shaved a little sliver off it by
accident. Since the whole effort was intended to fix an oil leak,
I couldn’t leave it that way, so I got a new one, and oiled it the
second time around…it slid on effortlessly that time.

I also lubed up the seal really well, and the distance piece slid
right in and seated against the timing gear.

Be careful when you bolt the pan up, as it is VERY easy to pinch
the outer material of that teflon seal, and take chunks out of it.–
Dagenham
San Diego, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 11 Mar 2008:

After you have installed the seal, be absolutely sure that, once
the timing cover is installed, the seal is concentric on the
distance piece. I had the luxury of having the engine out of the
car so it was easy for me to see that there was a gap between the
lip of the seal and the distance piece. I discussed this, with
photos, in the following message:

http://forums.jag-lovers.org/av.php?1043799i36

You may know that this teflon seal is actually designed for the XJ6
which has a different part number for the timing cover. I believe
the track in the XJ6 cover is a tiny bit larger in diameter. The
track in the e-type cover squeezes the seal and pushes it slightly
off center on the distance piece. I believe that this is the source
of the leaks that have been widely reported when people have
installed the teflon seal.

I, too, was a bit confused about the protective sleeve until I
realized that, with a little effort, the sleeve could be placed
over the end of the distance piece and then the seal pushed past
the shoulders of the sleeve. The lip of the seal gives slightly to
allow this to happen.–
Glen - 69 OTS. Restoration documented at www.myjagsite.com
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In reply to a message from Glen Jarboe sent Tue 11 Mar 2008:

I would agree with wholeheatedly with Glen’s comments on the fit of
the teflon seal. When I dug into the leak in my car, I found that
it already had a teflon seal (bummer)…but, I had already bought
a new one so I fitted it.

Guess what, the leak came back immediately. After pulling out the
replacement seal, I found that it had been squashed slightly
football shaped by the interface between my pan and timing cover,
and that when I held it up to the sun with the distance piece
inside it, I could see daylight getting past the seal.

Consequently, I am now putting my car back together with a rubber
lip seal, and the later distance piece with the o-ring. I honestly
believe that this is the best combo of parts.

I showed the teflon seal to a seal vendor that we use at work (high
speed industrial shafts). He laughed and said that the teflon seal
was the craziest seal design he’d ever seen considering the
application, and this guy was a Jag lover! It’s way too stiff, and
has no forgiveness for error. He was the one that told me to go
back to the rubber lip seal, as they have been proven reliable over
many decades of use.

I believe the most common belief is that the oil leak tends to be
caused by oil getting between the crank and spacer, not between the
spacer and seal.–
Dagenham
San Diego, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Dagenham sent Wed 12 Mar 2008:

Hi Guys

Hmmm -Well -I have the teflon seal, so Im going to try it. At
least Im now pretty good at taking this stuff apart. Ill lap the
Woodruff key so it just taps in.

Regards -Curt–
Curt Johnson 67 E-type S1 FHC, 57 TBird, 53 MG TD
Corvallis OR, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Wed 12 Mar 2008:

I tried 2 Teflon seals before giving up. I refitted the oil
thrower and used the later distance piece with the o ring with an
original seal.

No problems at all.–
67 'OTS 1E15533
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In reply to a message from Angus Moss sent Wed 12 Mar 2008:

I m mentioned this earlier but maybe it’s worth repeating.
The timing case seal that came in the gasket set I bought
recently was the similar to the regular rubber type but had
the improvement of second lip on the outside (or a dirt lip).

I also applied Hylomar to the crankshaft before sliding on
the seal bushing to prevent oil seeping through the keyway.

The seals I had that had leaked before didn’t seem worn. (ie
they were not worn flat on the lip) so I don’t really know
why they had been leaking.–
Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Wed 12 Mar 2008:

Curt,

I have to concur with what other people have said about post
Teflon seal leaks. I had the highest expectations of being
leak free when I installed mine, sans slinger as per
instructions and advice. Not so, the first one leaked.

I had to pull the pan off for other reasons and decided to
try again with another new teflon seal, same stupid leak.
At this point I’d love to go back to a rubber one, but I’ve
already cut off the slinger, and am not about to go through
the major surgery required to fit a new slinger.

Someone reported that you can do some minor sanding on the
edges of the seal to get it to sit perfectly in the slightly
oblong channel. If I were you, I’d give that a try lest you
be left cursing. In order to compensate for any lack of
perfection in your carving efforts you can run a bead of
silicone around the edge of the seal. It’s buried so deep
in the channel there’s no way it can ooze out unless you use
way too much.
Eric–
The original message included these comments:

Hi Guys
Hmmm -Well -I have the teflon seal, so Im going to try it. At
least Im now pretty good at taking this stuff apart. Ill lap the
Woodruff key so it just taps in.


Eric MaLossi 64 3.8 OTS
Austin,TX, United States
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In reply to a message from Eric MaLossi sent Thu 13 Mar 2008:

Major surgery to replace the slinger? You just have to get the
distance piece out, right?

Oh, I guess with the timing cover in place it could be difficult to
get a new one in…–
Dagenham
San Diego, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Dagenham sent Fri 14 Mar 2008:

Yep the timing cover is the deal breaker for me. The extra
thick cometic head gasket was well over $100. Although some
people are emphatic that the TC can come out without ruining
the gasket I see no reason to temp fate over a few dime
sized spots on the floor.

Also I forget now, doesn’t the slinger also sit behind the
timing gears? Either way it simply isn’t worth the hassle.
I do wish I’d better understood the poor fit problem of the
teflon seal before tackling the job though.
Eric–
The original message included these comments:

Major surgery to replace the slinger? You just have to get the
distance piece out, right?
Oh, I guess with the timing cover in place it could be difficult to
get a new one in…


Eric MaLossi 64 3.8 OTS
Austin,TX, United States
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In reply to a message from Dagenham sent Fri 14 Mar 2008:

I have learned now that for every great part, there are seemingly
identical parts which are poor sold by someone else.
I am wondering if there are some poor seals out there.
It has been a few yesr now,but both of my 3.8s have teflon seals in
them.
I bought the kits fromn SNG Barratt when Tom ?? worked there and
was always so very helpful. Tom told me to use the slinger anyway
and to mill off the same thickness of off the spacers as the
sheetmetal thickness. I did that to both of them. The first teflon
seal was on the 63 and I installed it in pretty short order in the
car. I do not think I removed the timing chain cover. I did of
course drop the pan. Both of mine are dry.

Mike Moore–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from Eric MaLossi sent Thu 13 Mar 2008:
Major surgery to replace the slinger? You just have to get the
distance piece out, right?
Oh, I guess with the timing cover in place it could be difficult to
get a new one in…


Mike Moore 63 O2S
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In reply to a message from michaelmoore sent Fri 14 Mar 2008:

I don’t think this is a case of discrepant/defective seals. I
bought mine from SNG, and it came in a Jag package.–
Dagenham
San Diego, CA, United States
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Hi Guys

My thanks to all of you who gave me advice on replacing the
crankshaft front seal (11 Mar 08). I learned a few things that may
be helpful:

  1. The seal must be 1 and 3/4 inches in diameter. Just 0.01 inches
    oversize will not work.

  2. Bolt the sump and timing chain cover together before inserting
    the distance piece.

  3. Be sure the distance piece slides nicely over the crankshaft.

Against strong advice I said I would try the teflon seal because I
already owned one. I lied. I actually had two teflon seals and one
standard seal. I measured their diameters with a caliper (accurate
enough) and found the standard seal and one teflon seal to be 1 and
3/4’’, but the second teflon seal was 0.01’’ oversize. Both teflon
seals came from the same regular in a Jaguar kit. Each was in a
plastic bag with the same manufacture date.

You would think that 0.01’’ would not make any difference, so I
fussed around with the larger seal. Altho more compressible than
the standard seal, I could not seat it in the sump or the timing
chain cover. I had all the same problems described by Glen Jarboe
(23 Nov 07) in detail and Dagenham (11 Mar 08). Putting in the
distance piece would not force the seal to seat.

In contrast, the 1 and 3/4’’ diameter teflon seal seated just fine
without the distance piece. To avoid straining the seal I bolted
everything together, sump to timing chain cover, before inserting
the distance piece. The Cometic gaskets are 0.02’’ thicker than the
paper gaskets, and 0.01’’ seems to make a difference here. I chose
the Cometic gaskets because they made the sump semicircle exactly
7/8’’ deep. I did not remove the timing cover, but had to assume its
semicircle was 7/8’’ deep. I used Hylomar only at the joints where
timing cover, sump, gasket, and seal came together. I have not run
the engine a lot, but so far no leaks.

My new distance piece did not really want to slide onto the
crankshaft. I smoothed the crankshaft and reamed out the distance
piece a bit with 400 grit sandpaper.

If your teflon seal is oversize, you can sand it down on a drill
press or a wood lathe. You could turn a spindle to hold the seal
on a lathe. I found the yellow plastic for putting the seal on the
crankshaft jammed nicely on the chuck of my drill press. 220 grit
3M stikit sandpaper on a wooden block reduced the oversized seal to
1 and 3/4.’’

Two different sizes of teflon seals would explain why some people
have success and others dont.

I hope this helps someone -Curt–
Curt Johnson 67 E-type S1 FHC, 57 TBird, 53 MG TD
Corvallis OR, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 8 Apr 2008:

Interesting stuff, Curt. Thanks for the thorough investigation and
summary.–
Dagenham
San Diego, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 8 Apr 2008:

Hey Curt,

Thanks for the info. This type of post is very helpful.–
The original message included these comments:

Hi Guys
My thanks to all of you who gave me advice on replacing the
crankshaft front seal (11 Mar 08). I learned a few things that may
be helpful:


KenAsh, Severna Park, MD, 1E77559 '67 2+2, 641/2 Mustang Cvt
Severna Park, MD, United States
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In reply to a message from Curt Johnson sent Tue 8 Apr 2008:

Curt!
Thanks for the info.
It would help to give everybody the suppliers name, from
where you got the one that fits and one that’s the wrong
one for this application.

I really think its not very funny when you’re ready to fit
parts in and find out at the last minute that it does’nt fit.
Some of these vendors should pay more attention to the right
numbers.

                                   Walter--

The original message included these comments:

  1. The seal must be 1 and 3/4 inches in diameter. Just 0.01 inches
    oversize will not work.
    Two different sizes of teflon seals would explain why some people
    have success and others dont.


Walter Schuster 78XJ6 FI Ser.II, 69E Ser.II 2+2original
Albuquerque/New Mexico, United States
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In reply to a message from W. Schuster sent Wed 9 Apr 2008:

Hi Walter

Both front teflon seals came from the same supplier. They were in
kit boxes from Jaguar and sealed in plastic bags with the same date
of manufacture (Dec 05). I think this is a manufacturer problem,
not a supplier problem. The manufacturer has at least two molds,
one of which is 1 and 3/4’’ and one of which is 0.01’’ oversize. Its
probably within specs and they probably think it doesnt make any
difference. Since they were made in 05, there is probably a
stockpile of hundreds, maybe even thousands. Only Jaguar parts can
solve this problem. Or you can resize the oversized seal. If you
slide the distance piece into the oversized seal, you will deform
the steel piece in the seal.

Curt–
Curt Johnson 67 E-type S1 FHC, 57 TBird, 53 MG TD
Corvallis OR, United States
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