Final drive output bearing - Wheel play - Brake rotor play

This is an update on Radius Arm - Calling the grinder in?

So I decided to change calipers, bought GAS adjustable shock absorbers from SNG - the shocks were good but after calling Spax in the Uk for new bushes they told me the ones i had are not manufactured for over 30 years (!) so I decided to change. Got new springs also and new rotors from Delphi at SNG.

After installing the rotors, i realized there was play on the right one, coming form the output of the final drive. I disassembled all again and removed the flange with the bearing : These are my findings:

(1) the nut holding the bearing in place was loose, as the locking shim ´tooth´holding it together to the shaft was broken and the nut could slide freely, therefore the play !
(2) closer inspection showed the collar retaining the balls in the bearing has a fracture , and the bearing balls felt when i remove the roller.

Question : can i use camber shims between differential output and rotor, for caliper centralization ? sheep is different i have no idea why.

Going to see if i can find a roller, SNG don’t have them in stock :frowning:





Rui Meneses

Use of camber shims - I doubt it - even the finest would probably be too thick. But for that I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. Most people today don’t get too worried about centering the caliper.

Are these the double row roller bearings? If so you might want to look at some prior threads discussing replacing these. They are not currently available I understand. Bill Angel has posted some solutions on alternative bearings.

Terry, yes, these are the double bearings. I will look at Bill Angel’s, if i can’t replace the bearing I’m doomed .

For the shims I need 0.75 mm and I had 0.25 mm brake rotor shims so adding a 0,5 mm camber shim would do the work.

Many thanks
Rui

This is the post you probably need:

Hello David,
Due to apparent changes made to the JL website a few weeks/months ago, I’m no longer able to access the Forum with the browser I’m forced to use with the 32bit Operating System that I have to use so as to support users of Engineering Based software I wrote some years back. I can receive email from the Forum and I can access the JL website, but when I try to access the Forum, I just get a blank white screen with a small, blue JL label at the top.

The number of the original split, double row, angular contact bearing is 414444A, but has not been available for many years. I believe a company in the U.S. is making a copy. I don’t know the name of the company, but I’ve heard that the price per bearing is over USD200.00. At that rate, it would be a better proposition to swap the existing output shafts and bearing housings with those from S2 and above XJ6 and XJS cars. They use opposing taper roller bearings that are readily available and inexpensive.

There is actually a sufficient, metal on condition existing with the original output shafts to be able to re-machine and convert them to the later type that uses the taper roller bearings. The bearing housing would still have to be obtained. I’m in the process of making patterns to have the blank housings cast, so as to make our own.

Best regards,

Bill

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Bill,
You can try reloading your browser but if your machine is ancient as mine was, you might just be needing a new 64bit OS…good luck

Seems there are no happy solutions to this bearing problem. Virtually all differentials used with this suspension system, starting with the S Type, Mk 10 etc will bolt in, and if the same ratio and type (limited slip) etc will work fine. But they are increasingly difficult to find and expensive IME, and probably need rebuilding themselves. If these bearings are being reproduced, I’d suggest $400.00 for a pair is probably the easiest and cheapest solution.
Anyway according to this site the bearing is available? Bearing 414444A SKF in stock

Hi Terry,
The original bearing was a Hoffmann bearing and I believe SKF bought them out many years ago. If the bearing listed (no picture or sizes shown when executing the link you provided) is the correct bearing and they’re a reasonable price, for sure that would be a good solution. The concept of the bearing is good, in that by drawing the two halves of the centre race together results in the correct pre-load, is a no fuss method of obtaining correct pre-load. The differential used in the S1 and some S2 cars used opposing, taper roller bearings, before the double row bearings was introduced; I believe this was the type three differential and type one and two used the taper roller system.

If the bearings are the $400.00 variety, then changing to output shafts and bearing housings that use taper roller bearings is cheaper and they bolt straight on; no other modification is required. The S2 XJ6 that use the taper roller bearings used a spacer and shims to adjust the correct pre-load, whilst the later XJ6 models and XJS used a collapsible spacer in the same manner as the differential pinion shaft.

Replacing the output shaft bearings is a job that needs to be done on a very seldom occasion, so replacing the bearing with the correct split race type is clearly the best way to go, if they are really available, but moving forward, the taper roller solution is better, as I can’t see these bearings being unavailable anytime soon

Brent

Hello Les,
Thanks for your email.

The 64bit OS is the issue. I can’t migrate away from 32bit that with the ancient Software Language I used to write my CAD/CAM application.

Best regards,

Bill

Hello Les,
Further to my last email, the annoying thing is that the JL Forum is about the only website I can’t access; the E Type UK and other engineering forums I’m involved with, not a problem.

Best regards,

Bill

On most modern operating systems, you can create a “virtual machine” that runs a copy of any OS you like in a self-contained window/process that you can still access from the host.

In other words, you can run your 32 bit OS inside a 64 bit OS and fully access and control it. However, if you need to control specific vintage hardware or devices connected to the 32 bit OS, then there might be a problem with that approach. (many of the device drivers\software used to control hardware in the older days is not easily virtualized.)

Dave

@davidxk and @angelw many thanks for the extremely useful feedback.

I have been contacting all the suppliers in Europe and the replacement they offer is the 27mm double ball bearing with no preload. But they do not supply it with the 2mm shims that would be needed.

The question is, any drawbacks from using that replacement part with the shims/spacers ? Thierry jag parts is selling this in the US https://www.terrysjag.com/product/12261X.html . Anyone in EU having a local solution?

Otherwise i can have spacers made , that would be a ring 35.1-41.6 mm for the inner race and 71.5-65mm for the outer race, according to my my measuring . Any special grade of steel? This is an experts issue so asking also @Dick_Maury .

Or maybe anyone in the UK knows about a specialist in rebuilding differentials who could help.

I would be interested in Bills’ solution but I am in Belgium and that makes things complicated.

@inlinesix , I also came to that site but then there is no further link to the product, they probably ‘have everything’ listed but then out of stock.

Many thanks to all again.

Kind regards
Rui

Hi Terry,
Although the bearing listed on that website appears to be an SKF bearing, there is no listing of it by SKF and our bearing supplier says its not a bearing supplied by SKF.

We’ve been looking for a reliable source of this bearing for quite some time, so I’ve sent a few messages through the website’s contact portal, but with no response thus far. A phone call to the listed number also failed. Accordingly, converting to a taper roller bearing system still seems to be the best long term solution and its easily carried out. The alternative bearing supplied by the usuals is a second rate solution, offering no pre-load whatsoever.

Brent

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Hi Rui,
Where I work, we don’t see the 27 wide bearing as a good alternative, mainly because of the lack of any pre-load. In fact, there is slight end float.

The outer spacer needs to be made a running fit in the spigot ID, not the OD of the bearing. The reason is that when you try and assemble the outer spacer in the bore after the bearing, the spacer falls to 6 o’clock in the spigot bore. Its also important that outer spacer makes axial contact with the face of the bearings outer race and not the step down from the spigot bore to the bore the bearing resides in. Accordingly, the outer spacer we make for clients fitting these 27mm wide bearings are machined with a clearance step in the face that contacts the bearing. I don’t believe the usual suppliers of the bearing kit, including the spacers, go to that trouble.

I suspect that you may have read my previous Post by now and my comments regarding the best solution and the lack of reply from the website advertising the 414444A bearing.

Brent

@BrentKeats , many thanks for this precious information . In Europe I have no alternative other than fitting the 27 mm bearing. I never drive the car hard, so i suspect that will not be a problem in the future ? Any chances I could have the right spacers done at your company and shipped to Brussels in the coming days, that would be a solution. We can mail for details if that will be the case.

@angelw , it woudl be very useful to know what is the US company supplying the replacement bearing

Very annoying to be stuck with this :frowning:

Kind regards
Rui

Sure is a lot of complication for such a simple solution readily available. Just chuck the whole axle and replace with a 1977 or later XJS or XJ6 axle using the tapered bearings and a crush sleeve. This was used through the end of the XJS and XJ6/3 run. You leave all of the shims out that were between the diff casing and the axle housing. bolts right in and works fine.

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@Dick, thank you. By Axle you mean differential ? But loads of work I already had in refurbishing the whole axle (cage, absorbers, etc) , it is like new now. Unfortunately i noticed the play when assembling the rotors only. The car is very original and i want to keep it that way. Besides, procuring an axle/differential , cost , transport etc will make no sense in this case if i can get it working safe with a couple of shims… If this will be an acceptable solution. I will not use the car in extreme conditions ever.
Rui

The axle mounts on the side of the diff. Not necessary to remove the diff to change it out.

@Dick_Maury , I see what you mean , that would be ideal if i Could source the XJ6 bits and the cases were similar .

But looking at the drawings they are not the same with the XJ6 diameter in the case being larger than on the e-type to accommodate the preloaded bearing setting :


BTW there is a good video here showing how to assemble the output shaft with the right preload on the Salisbury 4HU used on the XJ

Hi Rui,
They fit without any problem It’s what Bill suggested in his reply to David Langley and what I suggested as the best resolve in relies to Terry. I’ll see if we have one of the output shaft assemblies and a stripped down diff to take pictures of today for you.

I’ve seen them advertised by SNGB from time to time, as a used part, but you should be able to source then from a wrecking yard specializing in Jaguars.

XJS cars were fitted with Dana and Salisbury differentials; accordingly, ensure you purchase the parts from a Salisbury differential, if sourcing from an XJS.

Brent

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