Hi,
Maybe we get this differently, I don’t think Pete was suggesting putting electric collars even on those bulls, but that a mere almost invisible fence can make the difference as long as no-one wants to take a chance and test it to the limit.
Which reminded me that (although it now is pretty chilly) we had a nice warm weekend about a week ago, annnnd ca 50 buffalos went wild in the Eastern part of the country and ran away. I sure wouldn’t have wanted to be there when that happened! 
Cheers!
Which is what we’ve been doing all along.
You’re right Pekka. I was referring to the fact that those bulls were in fact perfectly capable of overcoming the restraint and walking through the wire with no real consequences. But they had learned that every time they brushed up against the restraint - quite innocently at first - they got an unpleasant buzz.
They did it a few times but soon figured out that life was a lot more pleasant if they stayed within the limits. And precisely because the power was always on and worked instantly, nobody ended up having to ‘do’ anything much or patrol or watch out for transgressors. The farmer DOES have to have a notice saying the fence is live, but that’s just for information of others - the bulls can’t read. People learn to avoid unhelpful behaviours if they result in an immediate low-intensity buzz. Nobody is suggesting Kilovolt power transmission lines
Nick, you’ve been here since Day one as has Gunnar. I’m a relative new guy, having discovered J-L in 1996 or 1997; back when George Cohn moderated the E-type and Pub lists. If I haven’t thanked you recently for putting J-L together and maintaining it through thick and thin I’ll do it now; Thank You.
I’d love it if your dream solution would work. Unfortunately I don’t believe it will. For the past 25 years I’ve observed it the Pub has always had a few participants, probably me included, who didn’t know when to shut up, when to realize having the last word didn’t equal winning the argument, when to say "I;m sorry, you might be right about that’. It’s been a vocal and prolific minority that stirs the pot, intentionally or unintentionally; mostly the same people. Human nature being what it is I don’t think that will change, at least not in the long term. Neither leopards nor Jaguars change their spots.
Your dream solution could become reality if a way to cull that minority from the herd could be found. I don’t know how you do that short of opening the pub and waiting for the members of that minority to self identify so they can be removed. The alternative, which I don’t like but suggested earlier, is to have a list of banned topics and rigidly enforce the ban. In either case the end result would be the same; some folks banned from The Pub with a few others arguing it was unfair to ban them.
That is one of the conundrums John. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And not just third parties - I felt that way myself. The one bit I was crystal clear on, but never really ‘cured’ to my own satisfaction, let alone others, is the ‘don’t argue with the referee’ part.
It is a given that no decision is perfect, even if there were to be such a thing as a perfect admin. The part that added angst to hours wasted, was that if you ever had to announce a decision there were always Monday morning quarterbacks determined to point out the error of your decision in public and sometimes unpleasantly in private. To which one could often merely plead indulgence. If any admin were to get 100% support and backing even for contentious decisions, lifecwould be easier for them.
First: Thank you all for helping, and for working towards a sustainable solution.
This is what the current rules have said since December 6, 2020:
If you break any of these rules, you will be permanently removed from the Pub. Depending on the severity of the transgression, you may continue posting to the other categories on the forum, but beware: No off-topic content allowed (i.e. no politics in the model-specific categories). If you just can’t help yourself and include a political sideswipe at “the other side” in a message otherwise on-topic for the non-Pub category you’re posting in, you’re banned for life from all of Jag-lovers.
The problem is that even the above threat isn’t enough. I’ve tried being a lax moderator, and I’ve tried being a very strict moderator, and everything in between. The result was always the same; some behave and some just won’t (or can’t).
I don’t want to sound like a cynic, but I’m afraid that as long as the Pub exists, this will always be an issue.
Perhaps the solution is to make the Pub a privilege, where admission has to be earned. If you’re unable to control yourself in public, that privilege can be swiftly revoked.
Hi,
Just like real life! 
Cheers! 
Plus 1 or perhaps several for this solution…
Excellent idea!!! Plus 20
When I was a young man of 18 (many, many moons ago) the legal drinking age here in Niagara, Canada was 21, but only 18 a half hour away across the border in NY state. One of the first “establishments” I visited over the Niagara River was called “The Fran”, in Lewiston. You paid $1 to get in, and they stamped the back of your hand with an upraised middle finger salute that was visible only under a blacklight. Mixed drinks were a buck each, but draft beer was free, though I use the noun “beer” with some latitude. The place was always packed and the patrons usually blotto. The washrooms were disgusting. Floors wet and slick and toilets filled to the brim. But there was never any fighting while I was there. There were two, big, ugly, scowling bouncers at The Fran, each with a .38 revolver on his hip. Nobody ever messed with them.
Perhaps the solution is a dedicated, big, ugly, scowling bouncer for the Pub. Step out of line, end up in the street.
Im big. Im ugly. Ive been known to scowl.
Ill volunteer!
Keeping a bus load of kids inline is a definite qualification.
Hehehe: the thought did not occur to me, but, yep!
Twenty characters…
When I say privilege, I mean each person has to apply for admission. Even old timers. The default would be no access and not even the ability to see the Pub category.
This way there’s no chance of a newbie stumbling across it and wading in all half-cocked.
We’d need an admin for the Pub, though. Someone to keep the peace and uphold the law. Someone who wouldn’t be afraid to toss a troublemaker out, but yet be seen as reasonably neutral by most members. .38 revolver optional.
The Lounge would then be our general chitchat category, with absolutely NO politics allowed. We’d have to lower the requirements to post in the Lounge from Trust Level 3, though. Perhaps to TL 1 (over 41k of our members are in TL1, so that would cover all except the newbies in TL0 (about 5.5k worth)).
In summary:
Note the part about the admin having to be perceived as neutral, though.
Isn’t that the basis of The Lounge? If you reach Trust Level 3 or greater you’ve earned the privilege of being allowed into the lounge?
I really don’t know exactly how it works. I’m at TL2 and not entirely sure how TL3 is attained.
Cheers
DD
Sounds like a plan: I would add that the Pub admin not ever engage with any of the topics.
You have to be either a native born Canadian or else write a 3 page essay extolling the benefits of maple syrup.
Does it have to be limited to three pages? I can think of at least two or three more pages to that one… 
aye, there is the rub
afaic, the 2 present moderators and Pete C met that bill, and I can think of a couple of others, but if I nominated them, I am sure they would decline
I think you should do what you want, what gives you most peace of mind
I would also urge others not to complain to “admin” or “flag” others posts
these guys probably get paid hundreds of $ per hour as highly skilled professionals,
and shouldnt have to spend their time thinking about others strange and unresolvable issues