What J-L listers have in common is interest in Jaguars (mostly from a wrenching perspective) and proficiency in English. And that’s it. So we are potentially quite diverse in other respects. For example, we are diverse geographically (including the southern hemisphere), in backgrounds, in views about politics and other sensitive topics, but, unfortunately, at present not in ethnicity (probably because unrepresented groups lack internet, lack Jaguars and lack free time). Thus the Pub allows me to learn about views within this diverse group that I have little access to otherwise.
I find it interesting to hear what others who think differently from me have to say. As I mentioned, I’m no expert on what forums are available generally, but I do know that like-thinking individuals comprise many of them. IMHO.
It’s Nick’s and my call. And I’m telling you that the subject in this category is Site Feedback. Please follow your own advice and try to keep things on topic.
Second, the massive irony of the post you just made is making me laugh out loud.
Gunnar and Nick. Thank you both for the massive amount of effort the two of you have put into Jag Lovers. I have gained much from the model specific forums for the Jags I’ve had and have. I have also gained much information and enjoyment from all the discussion on the Pub. I’ve been following a large number of threads in the Pub that are non political. Even the political ones have had a lot of interesting content. We, as listers, need to self police, pull back when things are getting emotional, avoid intransigent positions and remember the golden rule. Think before you hit enter.
“… it’s not a job, nor is it a labour of love…”
Thanks, Nick, well said.
Your tireless monitoring and endless work is most often not acknowledged, but is always appreciated.
LLoyd
It’s not what you look at that matters. It’s what you see.
Henry David Thoreau
Gunnar makes a good point.
“iff” (in a rithmetician language, pronounced “if and only if”) the list spoke only Jaguar language/stuff, I suspect it would either die in a few years or have an extreme amount of turnover. I am reminded of a beautiful, sexy woman with no soul. A wonderful weekend, but then done with her.
LLo… ummm, Joe
.
It’s not what you look at that matters. It’s what you see.
Henry David Thoreau
Yes; it is entertaining and informative and for the most part non-confrontational.
The rules are clear enough; people need to respect them and not let someone induce them into a flame war. We need to recognize when we are not going to change anothers position.
No. Solomon couldn’t predict which topics might explode. Better to self police on the back end. We need to do a better job of avoiding being dragged into a shit-storm. Listers have to be more responsible and vigilant in self control. Remember the classic liberal definition of rights: Your right to swing your fist ends before my nose. Same with free speech: Using your speech to shout someone down is not free speech.
Respect and tolerance of other points of view doesn’t mean acquiescence. We need to exhibit greater control and not dive into vitriol at any provocation. The onus is on us as listers to pull back when things start going sideways. Keep in mind, You do not have to respond.
Thanks for doing the graft Nick/Gunnar. Event acting as a first filter for a few years was tiresome and I wasn’t even the one making those final calls. That said, I don’t recall us ever disagreeing on how to handle specific cases/issues.
As you’ll recall my attempt at a solution by allowing politics in the general sense but coming down hard-ish on PARTY political brawling and arguing with whatever guaranteed-not-to-please-everyone decisions were made. Even during those slightly less polarized years it was sad to see supposedly thoughtful men on whatever sides of the issues still slugging it out and provoking each other whilst professing innocence or no provocation intended.
It might be an idea to leave it closed and eventually try something similar from a clean start, with a ‘Last Chance Saloon’ open to members with prolonged good records, and needing to be searched out on purpose (to make it default unviewable for those who don’t wish to participate and can’t control the urge to tune-in and howl. As it would only be for sensible members a ‘one strike and you’re out’ policy could force everyone to take care or they would be restricted permanently to model forums?
I think the two known moderators do a most thoughtful job from what I can observe
In my opinion, there would be a case to move to a form of “benign tyranny”
by that, I mean warnings, suspensions and bans based on whether the poster is annoying the moderators, perceived truth alone will not be a defence
not so much correspondence need be entered into, posts can be deleted by the poster or moderator, behave or get booted
If I was a moderator, and someone complained to me, I would probably be exasperated and suspend them as well, if I considered the complaint in any way frivolous
For all those who state they want to discuss only “Jags”
how could they ever complain if they were disciplined for non-jag posts ?
Yes, though this is really just an evolution of where we are today, just harder, faster, better, stronger, requiring more watching, more follow-up, more energy spent. This is not sustainable at all.
I dream of finding the enthusiasm and motivation to get my car back on the road. Feeling joy when I open the garage door, instead of it being a reminder that there are umpteen flagged posts needing judgement, another can of worms about to pop open, a bunch of entitled old men about to set the world to rights.
The dream solution would be if everyone could just behave, because they see that is the better way. And I realise this goes against everything men of a certain way stand for, but I’m putting it out there.
Monitoring duties
When I was pub admin I was also minding the E-Type list and at some point the XJ, having started on X300 after the late Mark Stephenson. The Pub by its nature was the problem child and because the others were generally calm I only kept an eye on them by default via my presence as an active member, not being feeling the burden of ‘neighborhood watch’ duties.
There was no flagging option and the only way I got any ‘workload’ was if someone wrote to me to alert me to something going on if I had missed seeing it for a few days. It sounds like you get far more work because flagging is easier (presumably) than actually writing to an Admin. Yet even though flagging is only a keystroke, the flagger still expects a prompt First Responder service despite you seemingly getting far more flags than I got email alerts.
Suggestion: Remove any casual flagging option and/or insist that before squandering an admin’s time and giving them a burden, the reporter and others should have tried and failed to damp down the outbreak locally by mature listers reminding miscreants part of the rules. That way, by the time an incident reaches your Inbox for adjudication or sentencing, it will already have been tried in the court of list opinion by a jury of peers.
Disciplinary options
In my time as admin, the choices were essentially do I or do I not give the persistent ‘arguer(s)’ a time out and if so, how long? There would be a a brief discussion between you and I or Gunnar - not least because the occasional offender thought it would do their case some good by complaining to you about my egregious bias against them… Suspension decisions were always temporary on my part, although some did decide to leave permanently, usually to return prodigal-like in due course. Nevertheless, the suspension option was always a tough call, because apart from idiotic newbies just making trouble, anyone suspended usually had contributed helpfully, or
entertainingly elsewhere - often on lists I did not personally read.
Suggestion:
It may have been an oversight on my part, but I don’t recall there being a partial ban option. If the new software permits, I think it would be an idea to just ban people from list(s) where they cause problems, leaving them free to participate where theycl can add value. There might even be some kind of automatic probationary reset, like a check engine light after a number of drive cycles, whereby admission to the Pub-type list could be regained after a problem-free period. That way, non-Jag participation could become the preserve and reward of those who avoided drive-by insults and regarded thoughtful debate and listening to others a privilege, not a First Amendment “goddam right” to be defended in upper case at gunpoint.,
Yes, you, Andrew and George always did an excellent job. I for one never go looking for a fight, but I guess I am guilty of being a bad christian, because I don’t turn the other cheek if I get punched or slapped for no obvious reason, but I punch back before I know what’s going on.
Thus I have been banned although I never ever picked a fight.
Still I believe in the Pub, because entry is voluntary and exit should be as well, but as in the real “Pub” metaphora you may run into discussion you shouldn’t and you may either choose to leave (“I’ll get me coat”) or get guided out through the door by the management (Nick & Gunnar who run the place, or the admin they have authorized.)
Pubs were closed for real in here for over two months as I believe was the case also at least in the UK, and now have limited access, over here they are allowed to be open from 7am to 6m but must stop serving at 5pm (who the h*ll in this country can be sitting in a pub or a bar during those hours? Not me or anyone I know).
Just my 2 euro cents.
Cheers!
PS. My only wish is that someone would make sure, that cultural differences, the fact that not everyone here is an American or understands what’s ok and what’s not in the USA may be very different in different parts of the world, and not all of us speak English, so some of us may sound rude in writing (Finns are particularly well known for it, just check out Kimi Räikkönen, or some other Finnish sportsmen) although it by no means is intentional.
I’ve often been attacked for just stating something about life over here, that affects cars and how they are bought, driven and restored, our taxes, customs, and in general how things work. To me it’s obvious that just the fact we are different is enough to tick some folks enough to start calling me, my car and my family bad names and wishing me ill. I don’t tolerate stuff like that, it’s that simple. So I left for a while but came back as I was missing a few friends and had an engine rebuild going I thought some folks might find interesting.
There are two large black Angus bulls near this house, each of which weighs more than an Austin Mini. Their only job is to keep a herd of high class grass-fed cows pregnant. I can think of worse jobs, so not too much to ask you’d think?
Despite (or because of?) this purpose in life, and the luxury of their own field, those two animals are as mean as they look and would flatten you in a heartbeat if the occasion arose. And yet these two monsters are kept in check by a couple of strands of wire that would seemingly barely restrain a child on a tricycle. How come?
Power.
“… Well I mean, they’re not gonna kill ya, so like, if you give 'em a quick short, sharp shock they don’t do it again. Dig it?”
[Us and Them. Dark Side of the Moon]
I probably wasn’t quite clear. Being more draconian, having stricter rules, banning more people, is exactly what I want away from.
And don’t misunderstand me, the Pub is my favourite part of Jag-lovers! After almost 3 decades, and not even having a running car myself, the model-specific sections aren’t actually very interesting. The Pub is where the hidden gems turn up. And seeing a good thread unfold fills me with pride.
So putting an electric collar on the users and patrolling mercilessly isn’t great. I don’t think I’d do it even if I was being paid to do the job.
