[v12-engine] Doing Norman Lutz' cooling mods

I’m listening.
Noted!

A.J.On Oct 22, 2010, at 8:08 AM, MGuar wrote:

I would base the solution to the problems this way.
tighten up interfaced betweens casting and seat? .002%
modify water flow. .10%
replace stock rubber hoses .30%
clean out radiator to allow air flow .10%
Clean out engine to allow proper water flow .30%
Proper maintinace .10%
watching guages .098%
The later means when the temps climb, stop! Don’t keep going
untill you get someplace convienant.

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In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Fri 22 Oct 2010:

One point regarding losing a valve seat…
Since I tear all my engines apart before I race them I can look
at the engine as it’s apart. Heads that have been overheated have
a definate look about them … Usually there is a slight gap
between the seat and the head. The edge of the aluminum has a
broken/ ragged look to it rather than the nice clean edge of one
that hasn’t been overheated… That’s when I order oversized seats
and rebore them…005 has always been enough…
I would never try to swadge them in place by upsetting them… In
fact if you think about it, it would be more likely to come lose
than the proper interferance fit… Localized increase in tension
causing relaxed tension elsewhere…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Fri 22 Oct 2010:

well I suppose some do things one way and others do
somethings different.

my 78 v12 jag has never had overheat probs, since I did my
way of mods, 75-80mph for hrs on end in texas and florida
heat.

works for me, and thats all that matters.

been 16yrs, no probs.

ever wonder how Group44 raced at Daytona 24 hrs, and never
overheated, I was there for three completed races.–
The original message included these comments:

I’m listening.

tighten up interfaced betweens casting and seat? .002%
modify water flow. .10%
replace stock rubber hoses .30%
clean out radiator to allow air flow .10%
Clean out engine to allow proper water flow .30%
Proper maintinace .10%
watching guages .098%
The later means when the temps climb, stop! Don’t keep going
untill you get someplace convienant.


Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Fri 22 Oct 2010:

Norman has asked me to post the following to explain what the
discussion is all about.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1287747811

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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In reply to a message from MarekH sent Sat 23 Oct 2010:

I post this offer again to all interested.
If you would like a copy of the ‘‘Cooling System Analysis of V12
Jaguar’’, email me privately and I will forward you a copy.–
Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Fri 22 Oct 2010:

Ron, the reason the Grp 44 cars never had overheatng problems
because Bob Tullius took my advice on the cooling sytem mods. No BS.
If you look at photos of the 44 engine used in 76/77 you will see
that Bob put the XJ_S’s water manifolds in the scrap bin where they
belong ( where Jaguar should have put them), and fitted ‘‘MY’’ Stg 3
cooling sytem that uses the Carby engines manifolds.
If you don’t believe me I will send you copys of the photos.–
The original message included these comments:

ever wonder how Group44 raced at Daytona 24 hrs, and never
overheated, I was there for three completed races.


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Fri 22 Oct 2010:

Why is it that most people are prepaired to spend thousands of $'s
on ‘‘bandaid fixes’’ that only mask the real problem.
Sure a larger ‘‘Custom’’ radiator with bigger electric fans etc. etc.
will provide cooler water back to the engine but doesn’t eliminate
the hot spot(s), it just gives you little more headroom. The engine
is still heat stressed. And that does not bode well for a long
life. A personal friend and lifetime Jaguar enthusiast modified his
1969 S1 XJ12 as per my mods, that vehicle was used to tow his E
type race car all over Australia thru the 60’s and 70’s, thru 40C+
heat. In 1980 it had done over 500,000 miles, that’s right, 500K.
And the engine had never been apart, never had a cooling problem,
didn’t use any oil, didn’t leak any oil either, because the seals
had not bean ‘‘burnt’’ due to latent engine heat stress.
If it was good enough for Bob T. it should be good enough for YOU.
And even if you have to pay someone to do it. it will cost less
than half of what that radiator cost you.–
The original message included these comments:

my 78 v12 jag has never had overheat probs, since I did my
way of mods, 75-80mph for hrs on end in texas and florida


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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The stage 2 modification has an additional 7/16" diameter restrictor
placed in the front port of rear water manifolds and specifies an increase
to 1&1/8" for the outer diameter of the front to rear connecting pipe for
users of fuel injected water manifolds.

Interesting. There are only two ports at the back end, one is being
reduced in size, and yet the pipe that connects this manifold to the
front end must be enlarged? Seems as though the OEM pipe shouldn’t
be much of a restriction to flow.

The photo shows these larger pipes and the manifolds all welded
together. I really don’t like that idea. The OEM arrangement of the
pipes mounted in rubber allows everything to flex, such as when the
engine heats up. Even if I were convinced that a pipe enlargement
was called for, I’d be looking for a flexible way to do it. One idea
might be to weld pipe stubs onto each manifold and connect them via
some hose. A neater fix might be to fashion O-ring grooves into each
end and slide a pipe into them during assembly so the O-rings seal
against the pipe while it is trapped between the manifolds.

For racing, a stage 3 modification is to use the earlier (but modified to
stage 2) carburettored water manifolds in place of the later fuel injected
design, incorporating the wider joining pipe…

I guess I don’t understand this. Do you switch to the carb style
water manifolds BECAUSE they have a wider joining pipe, or you
incorporate the same wider joining pipe as in Stage 2? What’s the
advantage of the carb style manifold over the EFI version?

and a smaller water pump
pulley of 110mm diameter. These are already fitted as standard on a v12
etype.

So, you’re spinning the pump faster? See, from some earlier messages
I thought it was the CRANK pulley that was smaller on the E-Type,
which would mean the pump turns slower. Faster sounds better to me;
I’ve always kinda suspected that thing turned too slow, especially at
idle, and especially if the idle is too slow – which is easy to get
on the Jaguar V12, it’ll idle smoothly down to 300 and even slower.

On my '83, I replaced the pump impeller with one from a Chevy. It
fit just fine, and truth be told the only reason I did that was
because I had accidentally damaged my original Jaguar impeller.
However, I really liked the Chevy impeller better; it had very
slightly rearward-inclined vanes, almost radial. The Jaguar impeller
has radically rearward-inclined vanes, so far laid back that I’m not
convinced they move coolant well at all – at least, not unless
they’re really moving fast. So, given the OEM impeller, I’m
certainly inclined to agree that speeding that thing up is liable to
help considerably.

I still would do those orifice mods with little shims instead of
plugs.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 24 Oct 2010:

Kirby,
The annotation is missing a word or two there. (There is a limit on
amount of text allowed in the captions.) I think the v12 etype and
xjs have the same diameter water pump pulley but the etype crank
pulley feeding it is of much lower diameter.
Thanks for spotting that.
kind regards
Marek–
The original message included these comments:

pulley of 110mm diameter. These are already fitted as standard on a v12
etype.


MarekH
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Kirbert wrote:

On my '83, I replaced the pump impeller with one from a Chevy. It
fit just fine, and truth be told the only reason I did that was
because I had accidentally damaged my original Jaguar impeller.
However, I really liked the Chevy impeller better; it had very
slightly rearward-inclined vanes, almost radial. The Jaguar impeller
has radically rearward-inclined vanes, so far laid back that I’m not
convinced they move coolant well at all – at least, not unless
they’re really moving fast. So, given the OEM impeller, I’m
certainly inclined to agree that speeding that thing up is liable to
help considerably.

That’ll just cause more cavitation. Radial vanes are not good for flow
unless you are running some unattainably high rpm. Look at centrifugal
fan designs - they all use angled vanes because that provides optimal
flow up to a rpm figures that are an order of magnitude above what an
angine like this will ever achieve. The more angled the vanes are, the
less cavitation you’ll get at any given rpm.

When the vanes are completely radial, all of the pumping effect is
generated by the centrifugal effect. When the vanes are angled, at low
speeds, the bulk of the pumping is done by the vanes displacing the
fluid outward as they rotate. At some point, the centrifugal effect will
exceed the vane displacement effect, and past this point, you need to up
the angle of the vanes toward being more radial or else they will become
a restriction to the flow and start to increase cavitation.

For optimal effect, the vanes should be aerofoil shaped.

The same applies to brake discs.

Gordan

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In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Thu 21 Oct 2010:

Actually, we pin the seats. There is a big difference between
pining and peening. Peening is when you actually displace metal
around the seat by hitting it with a punch or similar device. This
causes the metal to displace and tighten around the seat. We have
found that this is not a good long term fix. Pinning is what we do.
We drill a hole through the seat and into the head and force a
hardened pin through and then grind off smooth. Only way the seat
will come out is through machining. We do this repair method on all
of the v12 heads except the early ones that have enough aluminum
left to roll over the seats. This is another method of displacing
the metal over the face of the seat slightly. Once the head is
machined, the mark goes away and the seat is locked into place.–
The original message included these comments:

Well, speaking in absolutes is pretty tough, but I’d agree as far as ‘‘Giving yourself the best possible chance of it not happening’’ On second thought, I kinda take the absolute part back. I believe Dick Maury once talked about pinning, or peening the seats, and having success in doing so. I have a set of heads on the bench that look to have been peened. I guess the head could explode and those seats ain’t going no where.


Dick Maury , Rebuild Dept.- Coventry West, JCNA President
Lithonia, GA, United States
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Thanks for clearing that up and setting me straight.

Seems to me that you’d have the best of both worlds between these two mods.

A.J.On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Dick Maury wrote:

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Thu 21 Oct 2010:

Actually, we pin the seats. There is a big difference between
pining and peening. Peening is when you actually displace metal
around the seat by hitting it with a punch or similar device. This
causes the metal to displace and tighten around the seat.

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Dick Maury wrote:

Actually, we pin the seats.

Which means you replace the worry that a seat will drop with the
worry that a pin will fall out.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Mon 25 Oct 2010:

Been doing that method on all of the V12 heads for 20 years and
have yet to have one drop out. Odds seem to be in our favor at this
point. The are actually tighter in the seat and head than the seats
are in the head.–
The original message included these comments:

Which means you replace the worry that a seat will drop with the
worry that a pin will fall out.


Dick Maury , Rebuild Dept.- Coventry West, JCNA President
Lithonia, GA, United States
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In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Thu 21 Oct 2010:

Agreed, but I can’t tell 50C, or 100C from shinola by
looking at ‘‘N’’. I won’t say that I didn’t miss something,
but I don’t recall hearing what ‘‘N’’ is.

I posted calibration info for the C-N-H gauge here a few
years ago. It’ll be in the archives.

You will run fine at the top of the N or even one needle
width above. Two needles above would be alarming, more than
that not good.–
Joe Bialy, ’ 87 XJ-S
Grosse Ile, Michigan, United States
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In reply to a message from JaguarJoe sent Mon 25 Oct 2010:

YES BUT WHAT DOES ‘N’ REPROSENT? If you change the thermostat from
88 to 82 then ‘N’ does not have the same value. Why won’t the
factory put a calibrated gauge in? Maybe because they don’t want to
alarm the customer with the truth? And they are not alone, my 540
BMW has the same ‘N’’ and they are notorious for overheating
problems, a friend just had to replace his 523 engine at a cost of
$5400 because the water pump failed and dropped all the water. By
the time he could find a safe place to stop on the freeway, the
engine was scrap.–
The original message included these comments:

You will run fine at the top of the N or even one needle
width above. Two needles above would be alarming, more than
that not good.


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Dick Maury sent Mon 25 Oct 2010:

With regard ‘‘Pinned’’ valve seats.
I must respectfully disagree…
Formula 1 with their cost no consideration approach do not pin
seats… Nor do INDY cars etc…
Watch the Ferrarri engines being assembeled at the factory and you
will note they do not pin those seats either…
Care and attention to details are what determine successful seat
installation, not a bandaide approach.
With a pin you are relying on an interferance fit to hold the pin
in place the same as installing chilled seats in heated heads
does…
However you have multiplied the number of potential failure
points… each pin used is a potential failure.
Hopefully you are not using rolled pins but rather simple straight
pins…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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MGuar,

You’re perfectly welcome to hypothesize and extrapolate from other engines,
but please be aware that Coventry West’s pinned seat approach was developed
several decades ago after much experimentation with other methods of more
positive valve seat retention, including substantially increasing the
interference fit between the seats and head.

As for cost considerations, removing all of the valve seats from V12 heads
to replace them with oversize OD seats would be a hell of a lot more
expensive than replacing the one or two dropped seats and then pinning them
and the remaining seats that hadn’t dropped. Cost is always a consideration
in developing rebuilding processes if the rebuilt product is to compare
favorably with the cost of new parts.

Additionally, comparing the Jag V12 head to Indy engines or Ferrari heads
neglects other relevant factors, such as the metallurgy of the aluminum as
well as cooling flows and indeed the overall cooling system design of the
V12 engine.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding and if NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM has
been reported with our pinning process in over twenty years, involving well
over a hundred rebuilt heads, we feel pretty comfortable dismissing your
labeling of our technique as “a bandaide approach”.

Best regards,

Gregory Wells 800-331-2193 x103
Coventry West, Inc. Atlanta, GA
Jaguar & Land Rover Parts
(New, Rebuilt & Used) www.coventrywest.com-----Original Message-----
MGuar posted:

In reply to a message from Dick Maury sent Mon 25 Oct 2010:

With regard ‘‘Pinned’’ valve seats.
I must respectfully disagree…
Formula 1 with their cost no consideration approach do not pin seats… Nor
do INDY cars etc…
Watch the Ferrarri engines being assembeled at the factory and you will
note they do not pin those seats either…
Care and attention to details are what determine successful seat
installation, not a bandaide approach.
With a pin you are relying on an interferance fit to hold the pin in place
the same as installing chilled seats in heated heads does…
However you have multiplied the number of potential failure points… each
pin used is a potential failure.
Hopefully you are not using rolled pins but rather simple straight
pins.

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Norman LUTZ wrote:

YES BUT WHAT DOES ‘N’ REPROSENT? If you change the thermostat from 88
to 82 then ‘N’ does not have the same value.

As I’ve been trying to explain to owners for years now, it really
doesn’t matter what “N” represents. What you need to know is where
your car normally runs, and recognize when it’s above that norm. If
you have 88° thermostats it’ll normally run on the N, and if it goes
above the N you’re in trouble because it’s probably already
generating steam inside the heads. OTOH, if you have 82° thermostats
it’ll normally run a quarter inch or so below N, and in that case
being on the N is cause for concern! It may technically be exactly
the same temperature reading that’s normal with the 88° thermostats,
but in this case it means the car is not controlling the coolant
temperature properly. Again, you may already be generating steam
inside the heads.

The only value I’ve ever seen for a calibrated temp gauge is to
confirm that your OEM gauge is working properly. Since this is Lucas
we’re talking about, that’s valuable indeed. But as long as that
gauge is working properly and consistently, it tells you everything
you need to know. If it normally runs at one spot and today it’s
above that spot, start worrying.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 26 Oct 2010:

Totally agree with your statement. It’s useless to compare
the position of the needle regarding the N in different
cars. And not only because of different thermostats, but
because of the lousy earth (ground) of the instrument
cluster as well. I have never had cooling problems (though
the space between radiator and condenser was once quite
clogged), but the position of the needle regarding the N
changed a bit after installing the redundant ground as
suggested in your book. All that matters is to pay attention
to the temp indicator and detect a change to a previous
‘‘normal’’ behaviour. And if you don’t know if your present
‘‘normal’’ behaviour is OK, an infrared thermometer is very
cheap. Or at least much cheaper than an overheated engine.–
The original message included these comments:

As I’ve been trying to explain to owners for years now, it really
doesn’t matter what ‘‘N’’ represents. What you need to know is where
your car normally runs, and recognize when it’s above that norm. If
you have 88� thermostats it’ll normally run on the N, and if it goes


Luis Gasperini / '91 V12 XJ-S conv. 5sp
Montevideo, Uruguay
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