[v12-engine] Doing Norman Lutz' cooling mods

In reply to a message from Gregory Wells sent Tue 26 Oct 2010:

I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding pinned valve
seats. While I do agree that the V12 coolant design is flawed but
not irrepairably flawed…
How many billion engines have been made with an interferance fit
between the aluminum head and the valve seat? .
Not only mega buck, cost no object, companies,it’s also used by
Honda, Toyota, and every manufacturer I can think of…In every
grocery getting family car…

In the many V12 Engines I’ve rebuilt I’ve never lost a seat and
some of those have been used for racing.
I don’t doubt that you’ve been able to get a pinned seat to work
for you… But it’s doubtful that the same lack of attention to
overheating will occur twice. Most people when they find out the
cost of neglect and abuse are more careful in the future… Plus
simply replacing the lousy rubber the British use in the first
place gives the engine a much better chance of living…( a smiley
face belongs here)
Let’s admit that between the lesson learned and decent rubber in
the cooling system the likelyhood of a second failure is really
eliminated… (yes, ok, some people are really stubborn)(another
smilely face)–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 24 Oct 2010:

Coolant Pipes all welded together?
You prefer a flexible approach?
The head is a solid casting… You feel a need to allow for
flexibility?
Well I weld up a solid water manifold and pick up water from each
cylinder (wish I could post pictures) never once had a problem in
20 years…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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MGuar wrote:

Coolant Pipes all welded together?
You prefer a flexible approach?
The head is a solid casting… You feel a need to allow for
flexibility?

I’m thinking the head will get hotter than this manifold, and hence
will experience more thermal expansion. But perhaps, since both are
water-cooled, they’ll actually stay the same temp.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 26 Oct 2010:

You do make a valid point… heat loss throughthe casting will be
fractionally smaller than heat loss through the tubing etc…
however the degree of differance is trivial.
I suspect the reason the stock fuel injection/earlycarbs manifolds
have rubber in them at all is the thermal differance between the
chilled intake and the heat of the engine…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from MGuar sent Wed 27 Oct 2010:

well I hope you guys got that all figured out,WHEW!!

so many ideas so little changes. its just a lousy
engineered head for cooling,
IMO,when jag said dont make a 4 valve DOHC, the two guys
desgning said F$#It, and slapped the simplest head they
could on.

i would like to see an actual raised port tall head!
they used a 6 port water outlet manifold and prob. had
bigger ports, it used about a 1 3/4’’ hose at outlet.

sure like to get my hands on a set. CHEAP. LOL.

somethin to mention, I have done some testing with my
digital readout gages, a-head vs. b-head, drilled 4th plate
back for 1/8’'tapered sensor, and always seems to get higher
temps on B side, compared to A side.

one digital box with a rocker switch from A to b. 10F to
30F difference also depending on engine rpm and load.

im thinkin one water pump tryin to feed two banks on a V
motor, just aint gonna be even anyway.

lest not forget it is bean counters in the end, that get
the final say.

the old ford flatty V8s had two water pumps, one on each
bank, maybe old henry knew somthin about engines afterall!

any how on with the SHOW!!–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Wed 27 Oct 2010:

The head is not a lousy engineered head, it’s alousy engineered
water sytem.
Your temp variation from bank to bank is due to the diferrent water
outlets on the A to B sides. WE proved that on dyno tests.
That’s the reason I use the Carby style water outlet on the high HP
engines because you need a mirror immage water system for correct
cooling.
Even your high HP V engines from Lamborghini , Ferrari, BMW, MB etc
dont run 2 pumps, not neccasry if the water sytem is well designed.–
The original message included these comments:

so many ideas so little changes. its just a lousy
engineered head for cooling,
back for 1/8’'tapered sensor, and always seems to get higher
temps on B side, compared to A side.
im thinkin one water pump tryin to feed two banks on a V
motor, just aint gonna be even anyway.
the old ford flatty V8s had two water pumps, one on each


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Wed 27 Oct 2010:

Ron, in a previous post you said since you’d done ‘‘your’’ mods to
your cooling system you haven’t had any overheating problems.
Now your telling us that you are getting up to 30F variation from
bank to bank. So what is wrong with your mods.
This is the point I’ve been trying to make, the postioning of the
temp sender at the front of the head and only on one bank doesn’t
give you a true reading of what your engine temp is. If the rear of
the head is 30 to 80F hotter, you will never know. All V engines
should run a temp sender in each head, but if the manufacturers did
that they would never be able to stock the customer complaints,
because I can assure you no V engine has identical temp on both
banks.–
The original message included these comments:

30F difference also depending on engine rpm and load.


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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Ronbros wrote:

somethin to mention, I have done some testing with my
digital readout gages, a-head vs. b-head, drilled 4th plate
back for 1/8’'tapered sensor, and always seems to get higher
temps on B side, compared to A side.

one digital box with a rocker switch from A to b. 10F to
30F difference also depending on engine rpm and load.

im thinkin one water pump tryin to feed two banks on a V
motor, just aint gonna be even anyway.

Hmm. Sounds like the well-known issue of the flow difference caused
by the 1-1/2 pass radiator, although it’s certainly a unique way to
measure it. It’d be fun to install a single-pass rad and see what
happens!

In the meantime, a simpler mod might be fun to try, if you’re
willing. I installed a stainless steel 1/2" flat washer (1-1/4" OD)
in my upper right side radiator hose. It was easy to do since I had
Gano filters in place, I just affixed the washer to the inlet end of
the Gano filter on that side. The idea was to add a bit of
restriction to flow on the A bank in hopes of making the flow closer
to balanced between the two banks. Thing is, though, I didn’t have
any good method of measuring the temps to see what difference it
made. It worked fine, in fact the washer stayed in place to the day
I sold the car, but whether or not it actually helped any I dunno.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 27 Oct 2010:

Guys
Since we are now on 1 1/2 pass radiators and also on poor
quality hoses, I have two questions:

What hoses are recommended? I have heard, for instance, some
very disappointing stories about silicone hoses. (I have
bought but not yet installed a coolflex for the bottom hose
as the chance of abrading the bottom hose on a bit of
chassis or engine is so high, and would welcome any
feedback). But it is the top hoses I am thinking about
principally.

Second question. I am in principle against anything but a
single pass radiator, and the problem with converting seems
to be the exit point of the bottom outlet, that would favour
the B bank water. If I am right about this, what about the
following as a solution: get the radiator shop to cut open
the rad and covert to single pass, BUT ALSO to INTERNALLY
extend the outlet pipe to the centre of the bottom of the
rad? Then the water would be being fed to the outlet from
the centre and would not be favouring any side.

Greg–
UK spec 1986 XJS V12 HE
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Hmm. Sounds like the well-known issue of the flow difference caused
by the 1-1/2 pass radiator, although it’s certainly a unique way to
measure it. It’d be fun to install a single-pass rad and see what
happens!

– Kirbert-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or maybe not . . . . . . .

The HE engine in the coupe is basically stock internals, but has an
electric water pump feeding through a blanking plate into the same
place as the mechanical one did.
Still has the OEM radiator, recored once.

Has accurate temperature sensors on A and B bank close to the thermostats.
Both always seems to read within 2 to 3 deg C of each other.
Must admit that does not tell me what goes on at the back of the head.

As reported earlier, the cooling system maxes out at around 47deg C ambient.
Not sure if anybody has definitive proof, but I suspect the most
critical factor is how much air can be pushed through the radiator
rather than how much coolant can flow through the tubes.

With an electric water pump you could possibly test this.
First jam the thermostats fully open, then temporarily fit a flow
meter for the pump outlet.
Keeping all other variables constant, adjust the pump voltage and see
what happens. If my suspicion were correct, the coolant flow could
drop a fair bit before the coolant temperature starts to climb significantly.

I wonder how scientifically engineers design their cooling systems ?
My bet is they start simply by rule of thumb based on years of experience.
So they start with a proven water pump design driven by a belt and
pulley to give a reasonable RPM.
Worked before for similar size engines.

The radiator has to fit in with whatever the stylist thinks the front
end should look like.
In Lyon’s opinion it better be low and sleek.
So the radiator cannot be too high.
Try the one and a half idea because the slide rule ( yes, a slide rule
in those days ) reckons that the coolant and airflow will be at least
adequate and maybe better than adequate.
And the front is low and sleek.
Use the biggest and fastest fan you can fit and afford just this
side of objectionable noise.

Build it and try it.
Drive in conceivably worst case conditions.
If it is not good enough tinker a bit and make it work.
Project finished.

The end result is many owners running stock standard systems for 35
years in some cases, probably with good maintenance, and never any
serious trouble.
These owners may not race their cars, but they will endure traffic
crawls on hot days which is probably just about as bad.

Others suffer problems one way or another.

The best insurance is plan A.
Maintain it well and stop if in doubt.

Plan B is pretty cheap. I bough a box of 105deg C thermal switches
made for appliances.
Bankrupt stock, priced to clear.
I have one screwed to each head, just below the inlet manifold.
They are hooked up to a relay which drives a small buzzer in the console.

When the car had a dyno run the coolant got quite hot after 20 minutes work.
One of the switches activated and the buzzer was singing for 5 minutes
until cool down.
Normally I keep a good eye on the temperature gauge, but even so a
burst hose could catch you out and melt an engine within minutes.
In fact I bought the coupe in 1984 at 5 years old and within 2 months
had a burst hose, luckily it burst about 60 seconds before I arrived
to park at the factory which saved the engine.
That can happen with any car.

Richard Dowling, Melbourne, Australia.
1979 XJ-S coupe + HE V12 + 5 speed, 1988 XJ-S V12 convertible, 2003 XJ350

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 27 Oct 2010:

kilbert, a 1/2 hole has an area of 0.196sq. and a 1.25’’ hole has an
area of 1.96sq. in. You reduced the hose area x 90% without any
basis of fact. And you admit you didn’t install a method of
measuring the temp in both banks. That is not the way you do any
type of test. You are lucky you didn’t cook the engine.–
The original message included these comments:

willing. I installed a stainless steel 1/2’’ flat washer (1-1/4’’ OD)
in my upper right side radiator hose. It was easy to do since I had
restriction to flow on the A bank in hopes of making the flow closer
to balanced between the two banks. Thing is, though, I didn’t have
any good method of measuring the temps to see what difference it


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from gregory wilkinson-riddle sent Wed 27 Oct 2010:

Been using silicone hoses for year without any problem, apart from
them lasting longer and saving me money. Always recommended
changing normal V12 hoses every 2 years.
Greg, the radiator used is a cross flow, not verticle so there is
no bottom tank to place an internal pipe. If the radiator was a
vertica flow it wouldn’t need to be a 1 1/2 pass. The V12 E has a
vertical flow radiator and the bottom outlet is in the middle of
the bottom tank with the inlets in each top corner. 99.9% of
vehicles built today use a crossflow raditor because they are more
efficient.–
The original message included these comments:

What hoses are recommended? I have heard, for instance, some
very disappointing stories about silicone hoses. (I have
Second question. I am in principle against anything but a
single pass radiator, and the problem with converting seems
following as a solution: get the radiator shop to cut open
the rad and covert to single pass, BUT ALSO to INTERNALLY
extend the outlet pipe to the centre of the bottom of the
rad? Then the water would be being fed to the outlet from


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Richard Dowling sent Thu 28 Oct 2010:

Richard you are 100% correct, temp sensors at the thermstat do not
tell you what is happening at the back of the head. If you want
true operating temp put the sensors at the back of the head.–
The original message included these comments:

Has accurate temperature sensors on A and B bank close to the thermostats.
Both always seems to read within 2 to 3 deg C of each other.
Must admit that does not tell me what goes on at the back of the head.


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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Most seem to agree that a temp sender on both banks will give a more accurate reading of the overall operating temp of the engine (makes sense).
Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the reasoning behind placing the sender inside the thermostat housing?
With consideration to Normans mod, given your druthers, ideally, where should the temp senders be placed?

With regards, to the radiator, the single pass gets my vote hands down.
A few years back I made several trips to John’s Cars investigating the setup that he uses, never could get much information.
The front slope of the car presents certain challenges with a conventional radiator setup, and beyond that the crossover pipe that has to be implemented on the inlet to the radiator doesn’t rock my boat (although it will work). Something about creating a bottleneck going into the rad never really sat well with me, and the idea of adding additional plumbing to the top, front of an already crowded space doesn’t seem cool either.

Greg brings up an interesting point about the radiator outlet at the bottom.

No matter what you do with implementing a single pass radiator there will be a crossover somewhere in the system.

A radical thought: Purely custom of course. Toss the clutch fan setup and add electric fans. Ditch the current rad, which is about 2 inches in width, and add two single core radiators back to back with inlets on both upper conners, so there are no crossovers up top. You would have two outlets on each corner of the bottom, and do your crossover at the bottom, back to the water pump.

A.J.On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Norman LUTZ wrote:

In reply to a message from Richard Dowling sent Thu 28 Oct 2010:

Richard you are 100% correct, temp sensors at the thermstat do not
tell you what is happening at the back of the head.

The original message included these comments:

Both always seems to read within 2 to 3 deg C of each other.
Must admit that does not tell me what goes on at the back of the head.

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A.J. Simpson wrote:

Most seem to agree that a temp sender on both banks will give a more
accurate reading of the overall operating temp of the engine (makes
sense). Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the reasoning behind placing
the sender inside the thermostat housing? With consideration to
Normans mod, given your druthers, ideally, where should the temp
senders be placed?

Are we talking just one? If so, my druthers would be the suggestion
in the Book: swap the sensor for the EFI system with the sensor for
the gauge, putting the gauge sensor in the B bank thermostat housing
and the EFI sensor in the A bank housing.

If you’re talking more than one sensor, obviously the more the better
if you’re trying to figure out what’s really going on in there.
Ideally, I think, there’d be 12, one at every coolant port on the
heads.

– Kirbert

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gregory wilkinson-riddle wrote:

Second question. I am in principle against anything but a
single pass radiator, and the problem with converting seems
to be the exit point of the bottom outlet, that would favour
the B bank water.

No, that’s not the problem at all. The bottom outlet is not the
issue, it could be on either side, doesn’t matter. The problem is
that the coolant from the left bank makes two passes through the core
while the coolant from the right bank makes only one. This means the
coolant from the left back must see more resistance to flow than
the coolant from the right bank, because the resistance to the flow
from the left bank equals the resistance to flow from the right bank
plus the resistance to flow in the upper 1/3 of the core. As long as
the upper 1/3 of the core is clean and flows freely, the difference
is minor and arguably acceptable, but as soon as it starts getting
obstructed – and Jaguar recommends a new charge of Barrs Leaks every
coolant change – then it becomes significant.

If I am right about this, what about the
following as a solution: get the radiator shop to cut open
the rad and covert to single pass, BUT ALSO to INTERNALLY
extend the outlet pipe to the centre of the bottom of the
rad? Then the water would be being fed to the outlet from
the centre and would not be favouring any side.

There is no end tank at the center bottom, the end tanks are on the
two sides. OTOH, if you convert from a sideflow rad to a vertical
flow rad – which is what the Series III E-types reportedly had –
that would essentially be what you’re talking about.

– Kirbert

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Norman LUTZ wrote:

kilbert, a 1/2 hole has an area of 0.196sq. and a 1.25’’ hole has an
area of 1.96sq. in.

1.3 sq. in, actually.

You reduced the hose area x 90% without any basis
of fact. And you admit you didn’t install a method of measuring the
temp in both banks. That is not the way you do any type of test. You
are lucky you didn’t cook the engine.

No, I’m not. I was convinced that the upper radiator hoses are waaay
larger than they need to be for adequate flow, and remain so.
Installing a smaller restriction would have been rather pointless. I
do wish I could have documented the results better, but I was no more
worried about adding that restriction than you were about putting a
1/8" orifice in the front port on each head.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 28 Oct 2010:

1.23sq.in. actualy, don’t know where I got the other figure from.
Unless the area of the hose is less than tha area of the thermostat
it has no control over flow and placing any restriction in the hose
usurps the role of the thermosat which is a variable flow control
valve. I fail to see the requirement of your washer, all flow
control needs to be done on the head side of the thermostat not the
other way around.–
The original message included these comments:

No, I’m not. I was convinced that the upper radiator hoses are waaay
Installing a smaller restriction would have been rather pointless. I


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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Norman LUTZ wrote:

Unless the area of the hose is less than tha area of the thermostat it
has no control over flow and placing any restriction in the hose
usurps the role of the thermosat which is a variable flow control
valve.

Well, no, it’s not, actually. It maintains a constant flow, it just
varies whether that flow goes to the rad or to the bypass pipe.

I fail to see the requirement of your washer, all flow control
needs to be done on the head side of the thermostat not the other way
around.

The problem being addressed was the difference in flow between the A
bank and the B bank. The hose is a perfectly suitable place to do
that.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 28 Oct 2010:

No it doesn’t, the flow thru the thermostat varies as per the temp.
The flap on the thermostat barely clears the bypass seat when the
thermostat is closed, it is spring loaded so that when the
thermostat starts to open the bypass is closed off and the
thermostat can continue to open so that all water goes thru the
radiator. How far the thermosta opens depends on the water temp. If
you put a std type thermostat in the car it will overheat because
some, if not all of the water will bypass and not be cooled.
Adding a restrictor to the hose may be an easy way of equalising
the flow but a 1/2 hole of only 0.196sq. when compared to the
thermostat area of 0.89sq.in, a reduction of 78% is not what I
would call fine tuning and I doubt we be verified on test.–
The original message included these comments:

Well, no, it’s not, actually. It maintains a constant flow, it just
varies whether that flow goes to the rad or to the bypass pipe.
The problem being addressed was the difference in flow between the A
bank and the B bank. The hose is a perfectly suitable place to do


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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