[xj] Pertronix Ignitor Install Tips Anyone?

I installed a Pertronix (LU-167) Ignitor Kit on my '85 Ser.
III Grey Market VDP. Any tips for correct wiring/timing ?
the Pertronix directions seem very generic and jag
unspecific. 1. According to Paul (tech) at Pertronix the
two red and black ignitor wires go successively and directly
to the + and - sides of the coil. (my coil is internally
ballasted). 2. Paul/Pertronix said to bypass the Jag
Amplifier altogether – not use it ?
3. Not sure the plugs have enough spark without the stock/
(delco) ‘‘jag’’ amplifier, tho I seem to see a good arc at the
plugs. 4. Also, do I need to reset the timing/distributor ?
5. Perhaps I need to do some Coil/Ohms checking ?
I am also doing some testing on the fuel pump relay. I
understand the wire (appears white with a purple stripe)
which goes to contact #86 on the relay (when the relay is
removed) should be +12v with a test light when the key is
‘‘On’’. 6. It is NOT ? Also, 7. where does this wire go and
8. what does it do ?
Thanks for your ideas,
Joel Anderson
85 xj6 vdp
83 xj6–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

  1. Paul/Pertronix said to bypass the Jag
    Amplifier altogether – not use it ?
  2. Not sure the plugs have enough spark without the stock/
    (delco) ‘‘jag’’ amplifier, tho I seem to see a good arc at the
    plugs.

So…how does it run? Have you tried it? I’m not familiar with Pertronix
but I always figured it would replace the OEM arrangment entirely.

  1. Also, do I need to reset the timing/distributor ?

Can’t think of why that would be needed

I am also doing some testing on the fuel pump relay. I
understand the wire (appears white with a purple stripe)
which goes to contact #86 on the relay (when the relay is
removed) should be +12v with a test light when the key is
‘‘On’’. 6. It is NOT ?

Normal. It will show 12v only if the starter is engaged or the engine is
sucking enough air to open the flap in the airflow meter

Also, 7. where does this wire go and
8. what does it do ?

It goes to the red diode pack. It provides voltage to the control side of
the fuel pump relay

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “Stealthkat” jaimages@aol.com

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Stealthkat wrote:

I installed a Pertronix (LU-167) Ignitor Kit on my '85 Ser.
III Grey Market VDP. Any tips for correct wiring/timing ?
the Pertronix directions seem very generic and jag
unspecific. 1. According to Paul (tech) at Pertronix the
two red and black ignitor wires go successively and directly
to the + and - sides of the coil. (my coil is internally
ballasted). 2. Paul/Pertronix said to bypass the Jag
Amplifier altogether – not use it ?
3. Not sure the plugs have enough spark without the stock/
(delco) ‘‘jag’’ amplifier, tho I seem to see a good arc at the
plugs. 4. Also, do I need to reset the timing/distributor

The amplifier’s sole purpose is to detect and amplify the signal from
the dist pick-up, Joel - and use it to ground and unground the coil at
the correct ignition timing.

Any ignition system must have this facility - to ‘pick’ the right time
to fire the coil - either built in and wired to separately detect the
timing, or use the original amplifier. Somewhat crudely; sparking itself
is dependant on the coil…
I am also doing some testing on the fuel pump relay.

I understand the wire (appears white with a purple stripe)
which goes to contact #86 on the relay (when the relay is
removed) should be +12v with a test light when the key is
‘‘On’’. 6. It is NOT ? Also, 7. where does this wire go and
8. what does it do ?

The white/purple on the fuel relay is only energized with either a:
the ign key to ‘crank’ and/or the ign key ‘on’ and the AFM flap is
pushed in. It’s not powered with the ign ‘on’ only - so push in the AFM
flap and retest…:slight_smile:

The wire comes from the diode pack, which for this function is connected
to the starter relay and the AFM. And the wire energises the fuel relay
when powered from either or both of these sources…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Tue 1 Jan 2008:

Doug,
Thanks for the reply. The Pertronix ignition was installed
after troubleshooting a ‘‘no start’’ situation, which I am
still working on. I had experienced a similar no start
situation in the past with a failed original jag ignition
pick-up. I considered the Pertronix an upgrade either way.

The engine had been slow to start some days, and other days
would start right away. This had been going on for the last
six mos. There were several instances in this period that,
despite numerous attempts, the engine would not start, so
off to work I’d go. Then after several hours, turn the key
and would start immediate. If/when the car started, it
would have no problem starting the rest of the day. One
morning, one week ago, the engine just would not start.

I have swapped out spare fuel pump, fuel regulator, coil,
thermotime switch, fuel pump and main relay, starter relay,
fuel pump protection diode, power resistor, new fuel filter.
I have gone through the fuel pump relay diagnostics. The
fuel pump runs when the afm micro switch is triggered, with
key ‘‘on’’. Fuel pump also runs in the ‘‘cranking’’ mode. The
engine will briefly start (5-10 secs. today) but runs ‘flat’
where the rpms stay low, then the engine dies. After
several times of these ‘‘mini’’ starts today, the engine
stopped ‘‘mini’’ starting altogether.
I will need to get to Sears and pick up a fuel pressure
gauge and easier to read digital ohm meter, after the First.
I know I should be getting around 35 psi at the rail, and
should consider testing the regulator, tho I swapped out one
to try and eliminate. Not sure if I should look closer at
the auxiliary air valve.
A friend and I had fitted new pistons/rings in the engine
(with the engine still in the car !) around a year and a
half ago and the engine has run well since. I installed a
new cold start valve around a year ago. Should run even
smoother with the newer ignition.

Joel Anderson
Ojai, California–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 1 Jan 2008:

Frank, thanks for the relay wire # 86 ‘‘test’’ correction

I rechecked the wire, key ‘‘On’’, this time pushing in the afm
flap in as you suggested, yes test light went ‘‘ON’’
Still no engine start – still researching.

Thanks, Happy New Year
Joel Anderson
Ojai, Calfornia–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

At 06:16 2008-01-01 +0100, Stealthkat wrote:

I installed a Pertronix (LU-167) Ignitor Kit on my '85 Ser.
III Grey Market VDP.

  1. Paul/Pertronix said to bypass the Jag Amplifier altogether – not use it ?

Well, you are installing an aftermarket ignition unit. The “ignition
amplifier” is the OEM ignition unit (containing a GM HEI component). By
installing the Pertronix one, you’re negating the need for the OEM
one. These things don’t work in series - you wouldn’t daisy chain them,
and you definatley wouldn’t want them wired in parallel.

  1. Not sure the plugs have enough spark without the stock/(delco) ‘‘jag’’
    amplifier

The coil generates the spark, and it’s potential to do so is the same
whether you’re using the OEM ignition or an aftermarket one. The
“amplifier” controls the DWELL (the amount of time that the coil is
charging in between sparks - longer = more energy, and is a major reason
why electronic ignitions are superior in performance to old points
triggered ignitions – right after the spark has been delivered, the
electronic ignition is charging up the coil again, instead of still being
open circuit for several more degrees).

  1. Also, do I need to reset the timing/distributor ?

I have no experience with the Pertronix unit (I have installed Crane
optical trigger ignitions in other vehicles though, and they were dead
simple). I’d leave ignition timing alone unless the installation
directions advise otherwise. Certainly, you should CHECK the timing.

— '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’
Sean Straw '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’
Sonoma County, California '91 Jaguar XJ40 4.0L (LHD) ‘Trevor’
http://jaguar.professional.org/ '69 Buick GranSport 455 V8===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 1 Jan 2008:

Frank, thanks for the relay wire # 86 ‘‘test’’ correction

I rechecked the wire, key ‘‘On’’, this time pushing in the afm
flap in as you suggested, yes test light went ‘‘ON’’
Still no engine start – still researching.

The logical inference is then; with the same set-up, but the relay
replaced, Joel - the fuel pump should run…right…?

The question pertaining to the Pertronix installation; did the engine
run before it was installed - and does it now with the original
configuration reinstated? Point being that changes should only be done
when everything is working perfectly - it’s the only way of assessing
their value. Adding unknowns to existing uncertainties is somewhat
fraught…:slight_smile:

And happy new year to you too…===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 1 Jan 2008:

Hi Frank,
Yes the fuel pump is working when cranking and also when the
afm flap/microswitch is triggered, with the key on. I don’t
have access to a fuel pressure gauge just now, so I can’t
ensure the correct pressure at the rail.

My installation of the Pertronix ignition WAS a reaction to
the engine not starting about a week ago. In the distant
past I had performed an ohms test to determine that the jag
ignition at that time was good, but I didn’t ohms test it
this time. So yes the car was not running when I installed
the Pertronix a few days ago, and the engine still does not
run.

With respect to the coil, a year and a half ago, I had gone
through some confusion whether to use an external resistor
type coil, or an internal resistor type coil. I finally
settled on the internal type (Bosch Made in Spain 12V {blue
coil} 0 221 119 027 / 864 965 K12V) coil. I had also moved
the coil from above the intake manifold to the fender well,
back then. The car ran fine since, up until about 6 mos
ago, as I noted in my previous posts.

Thanks,
Joel Anderson
Ojai, California–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

I’ve lost track of the details of your situation so I’m not sure if this
means much, but that Bosch coil has 3-4 times the amount of primary
resistance of the OEM Jaguar coil…3.2-3.4 ohms versus .85-1.0 ohms

Is there anything mention of coil primary resistance in the Pertronix
literature?

Just throwing this out there for thought…

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “Stealthkat” jaimages@aol.com

With respect to the coil, a year and a half ago, I had gone
through some confusion whether to use an external resistor
type coil, or an internal resistor type coil. I finally
settled on the internal type (Bosch Made in Spain 12V {blue
coil} 0 221 119 027 / 864 965 K12V) coil.

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Stealthkat sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Joel:

How is wonmderful Ojai? I had a few assignments there in my past
professional life. I consider the gymnasium at Matilija High School
as mine. I was the clerk of the works so to speak for the surety
for the defaulting contractor. Always tried to figure out a way to
make a living in that beautiful community!

Are you getting spark to the spark plugs at the right time and in
the right sequence? Or, even before that, are you getting a nice
fat blue spark out of the coil?

I suspect the Petronix has no need for the GM amplifier. If you
have a ballast resistor on the coil, you will not need that either.
So, you need voltage to the coil and ground to the coil from the
Petronix. Just think substitute for points.

Oh, if you have another coil w/o internal ballast resistor, try
that. The Petronix may not need a resistor of any ikind, internal
or external. You may want to look at the instructions, or check
with the Petronix tech.

You did get the distributor sequenced correctly, did you not? S
plug wires in proper sequence. I and many others have messed that
up in one manner or another!

I am by no means an electrical genius and certainly not with the
Petronix! But, I have used and abused cars for over sixty years.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

My installation of the Pertronix ignition WAS a reaction to
the engine not starting about a week ago. In the distant
past I had performed an ohms test to determine that the jag
ignition at that time was good, but I didn’t ohms test it
this time. So yes the car was not running when I installed
the Pertronix a few days ago, and the engine still does not
run.
With respect to the coil, a year and a half ago, I had gone
through some confusion whether to use an external resistor
type coil, or an internal resistor type coil. I finally
settled on the internal type (Bosch Made in Spain 12V {blue


Carl Hutchins
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Doug, thanks for the info. Always good to read and learn.

To quote from Pertronix literature,
‘‘2. The Ignitor is compatible only with a ‘‘points style’’
coil. Coils in six & eight cylinder engines require a
minimum of 1.5 ohms of resistance. 3. If your ignition
system presently has a ballast resistor, do not remove it.
4. Caution: never use a ‘‘HEI’’ type coil with the Ignitor.
This type of coil will damage the module, cause it to fail,
and void the warranty. 5. The red wire from the Ignitor
must be connected to the positive (+) side of the coil and
the black wire must be connected to the negative (-) side of
the coil.’’

Also, some interesting Q and A’s under the Pertronix
‘‘Ignitor COMMON QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS’’ literature section:

‘‘Q. The engine still will not start or runs rough. Are
there any tests I can do ?
A. Yes, remove the red Ignitor wire from the coil. Connect
a jumper wire from the positive side of the battery to the
red Ignitor wire just removed from the coil. If the engine
starts you have a low voltage problem (This is a very common
problem). Remember this is just a test. Not intended for
permanent installation.
Q. How can I fix a low voltage problem ?
A. First, if you have an external ballast resistor, connect
the red Ignitor wire to the ignition wire prior to the
ballast resistor. Second, if you do not have a ballast
resistor you must connect the red Ignitor wire to a 12-volt
source that is controlled from the ignition switch.
Q. What type of a coil do I need?
A. Any ‘‘points style’’ coil with minimum 1.5 ohms of
resistance.
Q. How do I check my coil for resistance?
A. First you need an ohmmeter. Remove all the wires from
the coil. Attach the meter to both the positive and
negative terminals. The reading must be 1.5 ohms or
greater. (Your local auto parts store can do this for you
if you do not have an ohmmeter)
Q. What do I do if my coil does not have enough resistance ?
A. You may purchase and install a 1.5 ohm ballast resistor
from our local auto parts store. You may also choose to
purchase a Flame-Thrower 40,000-volt coil which provides 1.5
ohms of resistance internally and is compatible with the
Ignitor. Note: Many vehicles came equipped with a resistor
wire or a ballast resistor. These applications may not need
an additional resistor.
Q. What happens if I leave the ignition switch on when the
engine is not running ?
A. This can cause your coil to overheat, which sometimes
will cause permanent damage to the coil and the Ignitor.’’

Whew…
Thanks
Joel Anderson
Ojai, California
85 XJ6 VDP
83 XJ6–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Ok Joel, so the Ignitor sounds like the old Hall sensor style, which also
allows coil current with key off. Our OE systems do not and they should
actually work as well or better, with proper coils and no ballasts.

See, the sparking voltage & power stem from the change in primary current, not
its value (X amps). So, the purpose of the amplifier is to turn off that
primary current as fast as possible when the dist says so. You can think of
the energy stored in the coil’s magnetic field as “ampere-turns”, meaning amps
times the number of primary turns of wire. The magnetic core also has a
direct effect, but we’ll just assume it’s as good as can be.

With a magnetic field B (flux) established in the core during points (or
amplifier) dwell, and proportional to primary ampere-turns, the dist tells the
amplifier it’s time to generate spark, so the amp opens the primary circuit as
fast as it can. The change in magnetic flux due to the collapsing primary
current we can call dB/dt – flux change per second. The spark voltage is
basically the number of secondary turns (N) times dB/dt.

So, B is proportional to how many amps flow through how many primary turns.
And spark output is proportional to how many secondary turns there are and how
quickly that B goes to zero. That and dwell establishment are the amplifier’s
main jobs.

So, for a 12V system, the coil’s primary resistance should be as low as
possible, to allow the biggest current in amps to flow through the primary and
set up the biggest B we can. The Ignitor’s preference for a 3 Ohm primary
sets us back on that score, compared to the 2 Ohm OE coils, and performance
coils, which are about 1 Ohm. I’d go back to the OE amplifier (and no
ballast). Glad you moved the coil to the fenderwall.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Doug, thanks for the info. Always good to read and learn.

To quote from Pertronix literature,
‘‘2. The Ignitor is compatible only with a ‘‘points style’’
coil. Coils in six & eight cylinder engines require a
minimum of 1.5 ohms of resistance. 3. If your ignition
system presently has a ballast resistor, do not remove it.
4. Caution: never use a ‘‘HEI’’ type coil with the Ignitor.
This type of coil will damage the module, cause it to fail,
and void the warranty. 5. The red wire from the Ignitor
must be connected to the positive (+) side of the coil and
the black wire must be connected to the negative (-) side of
the coil.’’

Also, some interesting Q and A’s under the Pertronix
‘‘Ignitor COMMON QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS’’ literature section:

‘‘Q. The engine still will not start or runs rough. Are
there any tests I can do ?
A. Yes, remove the red Ignitor wire from the coil. Connect
a jumper wire from the positive side of the battery to the
red Ignitor wire just removed from the coil. If the engine
starts you have a low voltage problem (This is a very common
problem). Remember this is just a test. Not intended for
permanent installation.
Q. How can I fix a low voltage problem ?
A. First, if you have an external ballast resistor, connect
the red Ignitor wire to the ignition wire prior to the
ballast resistor. Second, if you do not have a ballast
resistor you must connect the red Ignitor wire to a 12-volt
source that is controlled from the ignition switch.
Q. What type of a coil do I need?
A. Any ‘‘points style’’ coil with minimum 1.5 ohms of
resistance.
Q. How do I check my coil for resistance?
A. First you need an ohmmeter. Remove all the wires from
the coil. Attach the meter to both the positive and
negative terminals. The reading must be 1.5 ohms or
greater. (Your local auto parts store can do this for you
if you do not have an ohmmeter)
Q. What do I do if my coil does not have enough resistance ?
A. You may purchase and install a 1.5 ohm ballast resistor
from our local auto parts store. You may also choose to
purchase a Flame-Thrower 40,000-volt coil which provides 1.5
ohms of resistance internally and is compatible with the
Ignitor. Note: Many vehicles came equipped with a resistor
wire or a ballast resistor. These applications may not need
an additional resistor.
Q. What happens if I leave the ignition switch on when the
engine is not running ?
A. This can cause your coil to overheat, which sometimes
will cause permanent damage to the coil and the Ignitor.’’

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Doug, thanks for the info. Always good to read and learn.

To quote from Pertronix literature,
‘‘2. The Ignitor is compatible only with a ‘‘points style’’
coil. Coils in six & eight cylinder engines require a
minimum of 1.5 ohms of resistance. 3. If your ignition
system presently has a ballast resistor, do not remove it.
4. Caution: never use a ‘‘HEI’’ type coil with the Ignitor.
This type of coil will damage the module, cause it to fail,
and void the warranty. 5. The red wire from the Ignitor
must be connected to the positive (+) side of the coil and
the black wire must be connected to the negative (-) side of
the coil.’’

Something eludes me here, Joel - normally the coil is triggered by
either mechanical points or ‘our’ ign amplifier. With only two(??) wires
and both connected to the coil - how does it know?

It may rely on the the existing triggering system in some unknown
configuration - and the remark on ‘points type’ coil doesn’t clarify
matters as it doesn’t state ‘to be used on a points system’. If so it
will not represent an advantage over ‘our’ electronic ignition, though
in principle it may work with it…

Question; is the white wire still connected to the coil (and amp) or
to the Pertronix unit? This may be a capacitive enhancement system - or
something else, but I’m still intrigued. And certainly wouldn’t fit it
untill I knew its details…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 1 Jan 2008:

Hi Frank,
Yes the fuel pump is working when cranking and also when the
afm flap/microswitch is triggered, with the key on. I don’t
have access to a fuel pressure gauge just now, so I can’t
ensure the correct pressure at the rail.

My installation of the Pertronix ignition WAS a reaction to
the engine not starting about a week ago. In the distant
past I had performed an ohms test to determine that the jag
ignition at that time was good, but I didn’t ohms test it
this time. So yes the car was not running when I installed
the Pertronix a few days ago, and the engine still does not
run.

With respect to the coil, a year and a half ago, I had gone
through some confusion whether to use an external resistor
type coil, or an internal resistor type coil. I finally
settled on the internal type (Bosch Made in Spain 12V {blue
coil} 0 221 119 027 / 864 965 K12V) coil. I had also moved
the coil from above the intake manifold to the fender well,
back then. The car ran fine since, up until about 6 mos
ago, as I noted in my previous posts.

All of which confirms my thoughts, Joel - installing the Pertronix at
this time was not a good idea…:slight_smile:

If you had, and still have, a good spark with a non-starter it’s
somewhat unlikely that ignition as such was and is the problem. You
should certainly check if the injectors are working, clicking, strongly
while cranking. While somewhat unlikely the Pertronix may interfere with
the coil signal to the ECU which triggers the injectors. And not knowing
what the thing actually does it may be unhealthy for the ECU for all I
know - the coil neg is directly connected to the ECU…

I again suggest you restore the system to the original configuration and
with sparking present and correct; move to other areas. At that stage I
certainly think that a fuel pressure check is more appropriate for any
further progress. Even if the fault is elsewhere a confirmation of fuel
pressure status makes further work less aimless…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the input. I picked up a fuel pressure gauge at
Sears (Made in China… grrr). I’m getting 41 psi at as the
line connects to the fuel rail (I installed a permanent
brass T fitting for testing) in the cranking and also run
ignition switch position, so the fuel seems good. A fuel
pressure gauge is a nice addition to my toolbox, either way.

Back to basics: My gut feeling, as suggested earlier, is the
coil + side is simply not getting full voltage (via the
starter wire) in the cranking position, so that will be my
next diagnostics when the California rain lets up a bit. -->

  • from battery to + side of coil for a test… should start
    ! :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Joel A.
Ojai, California–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

41psi is a bit high Joel. Are the plugs getting sooty when it does run, or
are they wet after trying to start?–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the input. I picked up a fuel pressure gauge at
Sears (Made in China… grrr). I’m getting 41 psi at as the
line connects to the fuel rail (I installed a permanent
brass T fitting for testing) in the cranking and also run
ignition switch position, so the fuel seems good. A fuel
pressure gauge is a nice addition to my toolbox, either way.

Back to basics: My gut feeling, as suggested earlier, is the
coil + side is simply not getting full voltage (via the
starter wire) in the cranking position, so that will be my
next diagnostics when the California rain lets up a bit. -->

  • from battery to + side of coil for a test… should start
    ! :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Joel A.
Ojai, California

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Cannara sent Mon 7 Jan 2008:

Alex,
The plugs are VERY sooty, and yes I believe a bit wet after
trying to start. I seem to remember the pressure being closer
to 35 psi in the past.

Joel
Ojai, California

85 vdp SIII
83 xj6 SIII–
Stealthkat
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Check that the vacuum port on the regulator can be sucked on without getting
any air. It’s worth trying a new regulator anyway.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Cannara sent Mon 7 Jan 2008:

Alex,
The plugs are VERY sooty, and yes I believe a bit wet after
trying to start. I seem to remember the pressure being closer
to 35 psi in the past.

Joel
Ojai, California

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Wed 2 Jan 2008:

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the input. I picked up a fuel pressure gauge at
Sears (Made in China… grrr). I’m getting 41 psi at as the
line connects to the fuel rail (I installed a permanent
brass T fitting for testing) in the cranking and also run
ignition switch position, so the fuel seems good. A fuel
pressure gauge is a nice addition to my toolbox, either way.

So it is indeed, Joel - the only ambiguity in a fuel pressure test is
the calibration of the pressure gauge…:slight_smile:

As others have said; 41 psi is too high, nominal test pressure is 36
psi +/- a psi or so. If that gauge is correct you are running very fat -
and the regulator is due for a replacement. Excessive pressure may very
well cause a non-start as the plugs may ‘drown’ during cranking - though
the engine will likely run OK once started. But the milage will be shit…

Also; you can connect the pressure gauge directly to the fuel inlet hose
to verify raw pump pressure. Which new should be 100+ psi and reasonable
at some 70+. For all I know your pressure regulator may be completely
shot and the pump output…41 psi…:slight_smile:

At hwich both a pump and a regulater may be on the agenda…:slight_smile:

Back to basics: My gut feeling, as suggested earlier, is the
coil + side is simply not getting full voltage (via the
starter wire) in the cranking position, so that will be my
next diagnostics when the California rain lets up a bit. -->

  • from battery to + side of coil for a test… should start
    ! :slight_smile:

If your theory is correct - yes…:slight_smile:

But there is more to the ignition system than power to the coil - and
your Pertronix set-up, being unknown in detail, is highly suspect.
However; as the fuelling is vastly enhanced in cold cranking and adding
possible excessive fuel pressure - no ignition system may be able to cope…

So get the fuel pressure under control before delving too deeply into
other matters…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 7 Jan 2008:

Joel:

Ojai & your pictures are marvelous.

You might compare your chines numbers against another guage.
Does it have a Schraeder attachment? If so, use a tire guage that
you believe is reasonable accurate and check a tire with it. then
try the Chinese unit. I suspect they will be close. Right now, I
can’t think of a source of known value to check against.

I like the idea of a Schraeder poert inthe rail, my old unit had
one!

You might clean those plugs after all that dirty running.

As to the Petronix. If the car ran before it on the Jaguar system,
I would go back. The Petronix is a step up from points, but so is
the Jaguar/GM so little is gained by a switch unless the GM
amplifier or other component is flakey.

If you go with the petronix, the amplifier is not needed as it is
redundant. And, I would follow the Petronix instructions on coil
and ballast. Remember, the base reason for a ballast is point
protection against higher voltage, so the Petronix folks believe
their unit needs that same protection.

All that is just the reasoning of a non Jaguar electrical genius or
any other kind.

Happy New Year

Good Luck.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks for the input. I picked up a fuel pressure gauge at
Sears (Made in China… grrr). I’m getting 41 psi at as the
line connects to the fuel rail (I installed a permanent
brass T fitting for testing) in the cranking and also run
ignition switch position, so the fuel seems good. A fuel
pressure gauge is a nice addition to my toolbox, either way.


Carl Hutchins
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html

To remove yourself from this list, go to http://www.jag-lovers.org/cgi-bin/majordomo.

// please trim quoted text to context only