[xj-s] Re: speedo sender

Kirbert wrote:

I just realized that the two wires to the “pulse generator” in the
diff that provide a signal to the speedo are a signal wire and 12V
power. I was a little surprised that this thing needs 12V power. I
expected it to be a coil-and-magnet type of affair, generating its
own signal with no need for a power source. Can someone elaborate on
such a scheme?

I pulled the sender out when I dropped my rear-end, and briefly eyeballed it
to try to determine how it worked.
The sender looks a lot like an ABS sensor. It just sits in the hole and has
no moving parts. Inside the diff, the mass of metal (ring gear unit) has big
steps on it (not a toothed wheel like ABS). If anyone can make any sense
out of how it works, with this small amount of information, God bless them.

Cohen, Peter wrote:

Kirbert wrote:

I just realized that the two wires to the “pulse generator” in the
diff that provide a signal to the speedo are a signal wire and 12V
power. I was a little surprised that this thing needs 12V power. I
expected it to be a coil-and-magnet type of affair, generating its
own signal with no need for a power source. Can someone elaborate on
such a scheme?

I pulled the sender out when I dropped my rear-end, and briefly eyeballed it
to try to determine how it worked.
The sender looks a lot like an ABS sensor. It just sits in the hole and has
no moving parts. Inside the diff, the mass of metal (ring gear unit) has big
steps on it (not a toothed wheel like ABS). If anyone can make any sense
out of how it works, with this small amount of information, God bless them.

If the sensor is aligned to sense the "steps" you refer to
it is probably the same idea and each time a step is crossed
it forms a pulse on the signal line.  Integrate the pulses
over time and get a DC voltage to drive the speedo.  Some one
mentioned the other day (maybe Kirbert) that there was 	
a capacitor mod for the circuit,  this was probably done
to smooth out the pulses a bit and eliminate some of the 
jaggedness of the speedometer operation at low speeds.

Gary
'86 XJ-S

I pulled the sender out when I dropped my rear-end, and briefly
eyeballed it to try to determine how it worked. The sender looks a lot
like an ABS sensor. It just sits in the hole and has no moving parts.
Inside the diff, the mass of metal (ring gear unit) has big steps on
it (not a toothed wheel like ABS).

Clearly, you are unaware of the level of cluelessness out here! I
dunno what an ABS sensor looks like, and I dunno what an ABS toothed
wheel looks like. So, since we have finally identified someone who
has actually laid eyes on the parts we’re talking about, let’s start
slow:

Am I correct in understanding that the sensor installs in a hole in
the diff housing, so that removing the sensor leaves a hole into the
housing? Like, could you add oil through this opening?

Whereabouts is the sensor located on the housing?

Is the sensor a simple mount-and-forget item, or is the installer
expected to shim it properly to establish a clearance between the
sensor and the moving parts within the diff?

Am I to understand that the “big steps” you are talking about are NOT
the teeth on the ring gear? Must we conclude that the ring gear for
this car is therefore special, or are these steps on a separate part
from the ring gear? Or did the earlier gears have these steps, and
some smart guy just figured out how to devise a sensor to read speed
from them?

If anyone can make any sense out
of how it works, with this small amount of information, God bless
them.

Actually, it’s not all that difficult to devise ways this thing might
work. It could, for example, work the way the OPUS ignition pickup
works: a balanced transformer, and the “steps” cause an imbalance and
change the output. Or, they could work like the CEI pickup, in which
the flux changes caused by the steps opening and closing a gap in an
iron core of a magnetic field generate currents in a coil. Or, as is
most likely, they work the same way the ABS sensors work, however
that is. The difficulty lies in actually knowing which is the
correct answer!

Meanwhile, someone can answer this question: once ABS brakes were
fitted, why did the car need a sensor for the speedo at all?
Couldn’t a signal from the ABS sensors have been split off and used
for speed? Or, and this would qualify as a “DOH!”, is that what
we’re talking about? Is this speed sensor the device used to control
the rear brakes on an ABS car?

– Kirbert | Palm’s Postulate:
| If anything is to be accomplished,
| some rules must be broken.
| – Kirby Palm, 1979From: “Cohen, Peter” peter.cohen@unisys.com

Gary,

Where have you been? I saw your analysis below and would like to know what your
ideas are on the original input by Kirbeth on the anomolies experianced on a XJ-S
with a rear mounted speedo sender.

Ned Wesley

Gary Johnson wrote:> If the sensor is aligned to sense the “steps” you refer to

    it is probably the same idea and each time a step is crossed
    it forms a pulse on the signal line.  Integrate the pulses
    over time and get a DC voltage to drive the speedo.  Some one
    mentioned the other day (maybe Kirbert) that there was
    a capacitor mod for the circuit,  this was probably done
    to smooth out the pulses a bit and eliminate some of the
    jaggedness of the speedometer operation at low speeds.

Gary
'86 XJ-S

Kirbert wrote:

I just realized that the two wires to the “pulse generator” in the
diff that provide a signal to the speedo are a signal wire and 12V
power. I was a little surprised that this thing needs 12V power. I
expected it to be a coil-and-magnet type of affair, generating its
own signal with no need for a power source. Can someone elaborate on
such a scheme?

I will take a stab at this,  someone
can shoot me if I am wrong.....

It sounds like the device might be a VSO (vane switched oscillator).
This device are triggered by ferrous metal.  Basically a 
proximity switch.  They are available in two and three wire
configurations.  If the two wire style,  the 12v that
Kirby is talking about must be pulled up using a 
resistor between the 12v and the device.  This allows
the 12v line to also act as the switched line.  My
guess says that the 12v is coming from the trip computer and it
is pulled up inside (I dont have the schematics so this is a guess).

Here is the basic Circuit Idea......

12v
|
|-----		
  |   |
  | R |	Pull Up resistor
  |   |   	
  -----
|
+------- Switched Line (This point would mesaure 12v with no metal present)
|	This output would be in the form of a pulse train fro 0 to 12v that 
|	varies in frequency as a function of speed.
  -----		
  | V |
  | S |	Detector
  | O |   	
  -----
|
|
|
  -----
   ---
-	

My Two Cents..

Regards,
Gary
'86 XJ-S 45K

“Flame Suit Enabled”

It sounds like the device might be a VSO (vane switched oscillator).

Cool. Again, this shows a ground being necessary. If so, someone’s
suggestion in my book that the sender can be tested by pulling it
away from the tranny and spinning it with your fingers will need to
be revised.

– Kirbert | Palm’s Postulate:
| If anything is to be accomplished,
| some rules must be broken.
| – Kirby Palm, 1979From: Gary Johnson gjohnson@asml.com

Gary Johnson wrote:

Kirbert wrote:

I just realized that the two wires to the “pulse generator” in the
diff that provide a signal to the speedo are a signal wire and 12V
power. I was a little surprised that this thing needs 12V power. I
expected it to be a coil-and-magnet type of affair, generating its
own signal with no need for a power source. Can someone elaborate on
such a scheme?

    I will take a stab at this,  someone
    can shoot me if I am wrong.....

    It sounds like the device might be a VSO (vane switched oscillator).
    This device are triggered by ferrous metal.  Basically a
    proximity switch.  They are available in two and three wire
    configurations.  If the two wire style,  the 12v that
    Kirby is talking about must be pulled up using a
    resistor between the 12v and the device.  This allows
    the 12v line to also act as the switched line.  My
    guess says that the 12v is coming from the trip computer and it
    is pulled up inside (I dont have the schematics so this is a guess).

    Here is the basic Circuit Idea......

    12v
    |
    |
  -----
  |   |
  | R |     Pull Up resistor
  |   |
  -----
    |
    +------- Switched Line (This point would mesaure 12v with no metal present)
    |       This output would be in the form of a pulse train fro 0 to 12v that
    |       varies in frequency as a function of speed.
  -----
  | V |
  | S |     Detector
  | O |
  -----
    |
    |
    |
  -----
   ---
    -

    My Two Cents..

Regards,
Gary
'86 XJ-S 45K

“Flame Suit Enabled”

Gary,

This is also a comment on the proposed circuit. The value of the pull-up resistor also
acts on the pulse width.

In the note to Walter Petermann I suggested that the only way we will resolve this is
to test an ailing Jaguar. But, most of all I wanted to thank Walter for donating his
expensive time and expertise to this effort. We bargained him down from $85/hr US to
$0.0 US with a one year guarantee of all work performed.

Ned