Today I found my original assay report regarding the plating
of the special equipment generator as installed in the XK120
It quite clearly states that the plating is predominately
TIN ( 63% ) with a lead and copper plating beneath… It is
certified by the chemist who undertook the examination. If
anyone would like a copy of this I can send it by snail
mail. QED–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Godfrey;
Welcome back…
There were two different (model number) Generators used
during ALL XK120’s production… The plated one, as you
mention, and a painted one… Which Model Number
Generator does this Assay Report cover?? (it is not uncommon
to find a “Strike Cote” of an electroplated metal under a
finish-coat of paint…)
I can see a copper “base coat” for a “Strike Plate” over
the bare (prepared) metal case, but I do not know of any
valid reason to electroplate (or dip??) lead during any plating
process.
Plus, I recall a couple of folks had some plated generators
tested and their reports came back that the plate was Nickel…
Charles #677556.
PS Sending Postal Address Off-List.----- Original Message -----
From: “godfrey”
Today I found my original assay report regarding the plating
of the special equipment generator as installed in the XK120
It quite clearly states that the plating is predominately
TIN ( 63% ) with a lead and copper plating beneath… It is
certified by the chemist who undertook the examination. If
anyone would like a copy of this I can send it by snail
mail. QEDgodfrey
pender island bc, Canada
In reply to a message from cb@risebroadband.net sent Wed 2 Nov 2016:
Not having a background in either metallurgy or plating I
can only re-iterate what is in the independent report. I’ll
get a copy off to you for the record. I have the tag
somewhere and will hunt for that to provide a date code /
part number. My car is a '54 so will infer that it is
likely to be the later version. it was never painted.–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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Godfrey;
Thanks, I appreciate it…
You may recall, we had an “informal poll” as to who
had what, that is, the Build Date/Gen Model and what
“finish”…
We got a number of replies that showed a 1952 era “cut-off”
between the two models of generators that also coinsided
with the gen. model change between the early 120’s and the late 120’s, each
having their own unique “finish” on the centers. Plus my DHC is a June ‘53
build… thus my interest.
Looking forward to the report (you could have scanned it
and sent it as an attachment to an e-mail… just sayin’)
Charles #677556.----- Original Message -----
From: “godfrey”
Not having a background in either metallurgy or plating I
can only re-iterate what is in the independent report. I’ll
get a copy off to you for the record. I have the tag
somewhere and will hunt for that to provide a date code /
part number. My car is a '54 so will infer that it is
likely to be the later version. it was never painted.godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
In reply to a message from godfrey sent Wed 2 Nov 2016:
These days electroloss nickel plating , at least here, has
become a bit expensive , and Cad almost illegal. So mmany parts
we would have had cad plated , we know have tin plated . Which
I am told involves a coat of copper underneath.
Which sounds a bit like your generator. In the many decades
since it was made , it may have been ’ resored’ previously.
WE had a NOS generator here of the { Mk VII] period and took
it to the electroless platers who confirmed it as electroless
nickel.
It has the advantage of coating all surfaces evenly, so the
inside of threaded holes are equally plated. as well as inside
the barrel.–
The original message included these comments:
Today I found my original assay report regarding the plating
of the special equipment generator as installed in the XK120
It quite clearly states that the plating is predominately
TIN ( 63% ) with a lead and copper plating beneath… It is
certified by the chemist who undertook the examination. If
anyone would like a copy of this I can send it by snail
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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Ed N;
The “EN” form of plating is a LOT less labour intensive
than the “Electroplating” form of Nickel Plating, especially
if one counts the cost of labour and the costs of the Strike
Copper and Copper Build plating processes required…
I did the reflector for the Lucas #469 Regristration Plate/
Back-Up Lamp assembly in Electroless Nickel… Took about
an hour and it was done!!
One quick question about your NOS MKVII Generator…
What “Model Number” is that generator?? I ask as the MKVII
was built before and during the XK120’s production run… the
120’s, as we know, used two different generators during it’s
production run… The MKVII SPC shows the MKVII used
the same two generators…
Charles #677556.----- Original Message -----
From: “Ed Nantes”
These days electroloss nickel plating , at least here, has
become a bit expensive , and Cad almost illegal. So mmany parts
we would have had cad plated , we know have tin plated . Which
I am told involves a coat of copper underneath.
Which sounds a bit like your generator. In the many decades
since it was made , it may have been ’ resored’ previously.WE had a NOS generator here of the { Mk VII] period and took
it to the electroless platers who confirmed it as electroless
nickel.
It has the advantage of coating all surfaces evenly, so the
inside of threaded holes are equally plated. as well as inside
the barrel.Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
To confirm Eds comments, I have a NOS Lucas Generator in original Lucas box
with its plaque showing Lucas Part Number 22429F date 6 51 ex a Jaguar Spare
Parts outlet with Mark VII written on it, so its Jaguar Part Number C.2572/1
as used for both XK120 and Mark VII.
It has some damp storage damage on just one part of the barrel only, but
enough to have a small piece of the Nickel Plating peel up (not off), but
enough to show bare-steel underneath, no primer, no copper plating.
And I have had this Generator examined by those in the electroless-plating
industry, and confirmed it to be 100% Electroless-Nickle plated, and a long
explanation of the process.
And this NOS generator looks identical to others confirmed on early XK120s,
albeit none others were NOS and with a peeling damaged piece subject to
expert verification.
So, I don’t doubt the skills of the Chemist analyzing whatever he received
from Godfrey, but sounds to me like some past effort and
reconditioning/restoration by someone with tin-plating capability, but not
electroless nickel plating capability.
I think the only remaining area of debate is exactly at what point did XK120
change from having electroless-nickel plated generators to those painted
black, but hardly however any form of ‘controversy’.
I have amongst my spares a used, but low mileage excellent original 22429H
dated 11 51, but no other effort to find a nickel/black demarcation date.
Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia
.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Ed Nantes
Sent: 4 November, 2016 14:08
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] To resolve a controvosy
In reply to a message from godfrey sent Wed 2 Nov 2016:
These days electroloss nickel plating , at least here, has become a bit
expensive , and Cad almost illegal. So mmany parts we would have had cad
plated , we know have tin plated . Which I am told involves a coat of copper
underneath.
Which sounds a bit like your generator. In the many decades since it was
made , it may have been ’ resored’ previously.
WE had a NOS generator here of the { Mk VII] period and took it to the
electroless platers who confirmed it as electroless nickel.
It has the advantage of coating all surfaces evenly, so the inside of
threaded holes are equally plated. as well as inside the barrel.
–
The original message included these comments:
Today I found my original assay report regarding the plating of the
special equipment generator as installed in the XK120 It quite clearly
states that the plating is predominately TIN ( 63% ) with a lead and
copper plating beneath… It is certified by the chemist who undertook
the examination. If anyone would like a copy of this I can send it by
snail
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Thu 3 Nov 2016:
On a factory NOS Lucas box containing a SFT700 driving
lamp I have there is a label on which is printed ‘’ the
nickel plated uses order 1951 ‘’ from the supply ministry…
detailing the restrictions placed on its use. I propose that
given this that Lucas switched from the nickel plating that
Roger claims on the generator in his possession to the tin
on mine … There as no indication at the time of the assay
that the generator had been previously dis-assembled. I feel
it would be worth enquiring of Her Majesties govt as to when
the order was enacted… possibly shortly after 6/51.
Godfrey–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Thu 3 Nov 2016:
Roger, is your 11-51 generator black? Mine are grey. I found
grey inside the bodies.
BTW the change in model number was related to a change in
the cooling port on the rear cover.–
The original message included these comments:
change from having electroless-nickel plated generators to those painted
black, but hardly however any form of ‘controversy’.
I have amongst my spares a used, but low mileage excellent original 22429H
dated 11 51, but no other effort to find a nickel/black demarcation date.
–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from godfrey sent Fri 4 Nov 2016:
I would think the tree might give fruit quicker and easier
by first attempting to obtain a response from the LUCAS
archives-they are (or were) at Beaulieu (National Motor
Museum).–
The original message included these comments:
that the generator had been previously dis-assembled. I feel
it would be worth enquiring of Her Majesties govt as to when
the order was enacted… possibly shortly after 6/51.
Godfrey
–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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Over to you Godfrey.
If you care to do a little bit of research, you will find that the 1951
Nickel Uses Ministry of Supply order that you reference only applied to a
specific list (or two schedules) of items, and indeed Fog Lamps were one of
the very few nominated items that impacted on cars built for export.
If you care to search British Hansard you will find there was considerable
debate in the House of Commons regarding this restriction of use of Nickel,
to allow priority allocation for Britain to re-establish their military and
in particular aviation industries post WW2 with World supply aggravated by a
peak US demand from their Korean War involvement, and this was balanced
against the need for Britain to prioritize their export industries, and I
think we all accept now that one of the main motivations of the UK
Automotive Industry was to prioritize export where they could get priority
allocation of scarce raw materials including steel, aluminium and other
materials if manufacturing goods for export, but not solely domestic
consumption.
There was a complicated schedule of what the 1951 MoS order did restrict and
what it didn’t restrict, but no, a single label in a Fog Lamp box does not
suggest a blanket restriction in the automotive industries use of Nickel.
So the theory is complicated, but you are more than welcome to research it
further than I did some years ago when you first floated this ONE label you
found in a non-Jaguar relevant Fog Lamp box.
But proof on the ground is no, the restriction on Nickel did not apply to
Lucas made Dynamos (Generators) as fitted to Jaguars.
Their decision to move from Electroless Nickel plating, to painting them
black was for other reasons, and nothing to do with this 1st October 1951
Ministry-of-Supply Nickel restriction.
If you do chase up the LUCAS Archives as George suggests, may I also suggest
you ask if they have a copy of the Schedules (two apparently - one for
Nickel plated items, the other for use of Nickel within alloy steels) that
were the key part of the Ministry of Supply Order No.1048 that indeed was
dated 13th June 1951, to take effect from 1st October 1951.
As per my previous posting, I do have a NOVEMBER 1951 Generator that indeed
is Electroless Nickel plated.
And indeed, keeping this relevant to XKs, and not a fog-lamp label
red-herring, I think you will find SU also kept Nickel plating certain
carburetter-linkage components after Oct 1951, before moving on to Cadmium
Plating, and Jaguar kept Chrome (Nickel) plating the XK120 grille, bumpers,
windscreen frame etc etc.
The other thing that impacts on XK120s was that it appears this order was
however short lived, as evident from Tail Lights (also included in
restricted schedule) going from Chrome (over Nickel) Plated, a period of
being body-colour painted (do we know when?) then back to Chrome (over
Nickel) Plated. And indeed, Chrome (over Nickel) Fog Lamps were later
offered as an Optional Extra for XK120 (again I would have to check, from
when?) Certainly, LUCAS were offering Chrome (Nickel) plated Fog Lamps
again by 7 53 at the latest, and indeed I have one date stamped 10 53, but
have never really looked much to establish a date-range, as it seems this
Nickel restriction was just a short term blip, maybe 12 months?.
But again, I say - there is no Controversy, all that needs to be done is
establish the demarcation date from when Generators started to be painted
Black, rather than being Electroless Nickel plated.
Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
George Camp
Sent: 5 November, 2016 02:39
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] To resolve a controvosy
In reply to a message from godfrey sent Fri 4 Nov 2016:
I would think the tree might give fruit quicker and easier by first
attempting to obtain a response from the LUCAS archives-they are (or were)
at Beaulieu (National Motor Museum).
The original message included these comments:
that the generator had been previously dis-assembled. I feel it would
be worth enquiring of Her Majesties govt as to when the order was
enacted… possibly shortly after 6/51.
Godfrey
–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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Rob,
My 11 51 Generator is most definitely Electroless Nickel Plated, and not
painted black (or grey).
My point was regarding the Nickel plating only, as I am aware of debate re
paint colour that I have not particularly looked into.
All I know for sure is all XK140/150 Generators are painted Black, none Grey
and none Nickel plated!
Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia
.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Rob Reilly
Sent: 5 November, 2016 01:20
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] To resolve a controvosy
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Thu 3 Nov 2016:
Roger, is your 11-51 generator black? Mine are grey. I found grey inside the
bodies.
BTW the change in model number was related to a change in the cooling port
on the rear cover.
The original message included these comments:
change from having electroless-nickel plated generators to those
painted black, but hardly however any form of ‘controversy’.
I have amongst my spares a used, but low mileage excellent original
22429H dated 11 51, but no other effort to find a nickel/black demarcation
date.
–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0 --Posted using
Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support Jag-lovers - Donate
at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 4 Nov 2016:
Roger I WALKED AWAY FROM THIS FORUM IN PART AS A RESULT OF
YOUR OBSESSIONAL NEED TO BE RIGHT… I can only offer what
information I have at my disposal for what I hope will be
the enrichment of all. For those in the group who are
interested to look beyond your bluster I will continue to do
so. Bully away I don’t need and won’t put up with it. I’m
gone Permanently Please cancel my ‘membership’–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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In reply to a message from godfrey sent Fri 4 Nov 2016:
Humm … ‘‘cancel my membership comment’’ ???
Godfrey … from what I can tell from the heading on top of
this tread, you aren’t actually a member of this group
anyways? Perhaps you could explain to a newbie like me, what
that actually means or have I stepped into something that
smells?–
The original message included these comments:
gone Permanently Please cancel my ‘membership’
–
Harv XK 140
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In reply to a message from Harv XK 140 sent Sat 5 Nov 2016:
Harv, there is no membership in the usual sense of the
word, as in a private club, though I have often thought it
is like having 100 guys over to my garage for a visit. If
you read this in the online forum version you will see that
some participants are noted in their individual headers as
being a ‘‘Supporter via Donation’’, meaning we have
contributed financially and could be said to have a vested
interest in the web site.
If you scroll down to the bottom you will see a link
marked ‘‘Mailing Lists’’, which is a legacy from the early
days of the internet, when we really were just a list of
email addresses, and anyone wanting to post a topic for
discussion had to copy and paste every one of those
addresses into an email.
Some people still receive every posting from this forum in
the form of an email. They may be recognized by the
inclusion of the entire previous postings to which they are
replying, whereas forum replies include only that which is
selected of the preceding post.
The Mailing Lists link is used to subscribe or unsubscribe
from these emailings. The subscribers must unsubscribe
themselves.
One can also leave in a huff of high dudgeon by not
responding or simply not visiting this forum. There has
also been an instance of banishment by the web master for
abusiveness.
Sadly we have also lost some friends that quietly stop
their participation, and we don’t hear until months later
that they are gone.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Godfrey
You are out of line and only an abject apology to Roger will do!
Klaus W. Nielsen
Lister since the 90ies.On 11/4/16 11:13 PM, “godfrey” <owner-xk@jag-lovers.org on behalf of artrageus@shaw.ca> wrote:
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 4 Nov 2016:
Roger I WALKED AWAY FROM THIS FORUM IN PART AS A RESULT OF
YOUR OBSESSIONAL NEED TO BE RIGHT… I can only offer what
information I have at my disposal for what I hope will be
the enrichment of all. For those in the group who are
interested to look beyond your bluster I will continue to do
so. Bully away I don’t need and won’t put up with it. I’m
gone Permanently Please cancel my ‘membership’godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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In reply to a message from Klaus Nielsen sent Sun 6 Nov 2016:
Klaus I totally agree with you except you left out the word
‘‘way’’. Roger’s research has always been spot on and in fact
he might be further along if I get the time to send him some
long promised materials. As one that was the target of a
suggested ‘‘perp walk’’ I do understand the source. It is sad
as the XK forum is run without an admin as there is no need
and is truly a gentleman’s forum. Roger thanks for all of
the work you have and hopefully will do.
On another subject Klaus did you get the scan of the
Jaguar/Studebaker transmission letter?–
The original message included these comments:
You are out of line and only an abject apology to Roger will do!
Klaus W. Nielsen
–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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I concur with Klaus and George. I have had many “discussions and
exchanges” with Roger and I find him way over the top in his willingness to share
his vast information. While I am able to occasionally give him some
information that he does not already have (I have a significant collection of
Jaguar and Daimler literature, but nothing like what Roger and George have),
Roger returns information ten fold. Sure, Roger comes off as being
authoritative, but he is- he is THE authority for many things Jaguar (particularly
XK140 related) and many things Daimler related. And, he clearly states
when he gives a “certainties” versus “guesses”, as he has the Lucas,
Tung-sol, Trico, or other supplier catalogs and period literature to do his
research.
Hats off to Roger. Bob McAnelly
In a message dated 11/7/2016 11:09:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
scjag@juno.com writes:
In reply to a message from Klaus Nielsen sent Sun 6 Nov 2016:
Klaus I totally agree with you except you left out the word
‘‘way’’. Roger’s research has always been spot on and in fact
he might be further along if I get the time to send him some
long promised materials. As one that was the target of a
suggested ‘‘perp walk’’ I do understand the source. It is sad
as the XK forum is run without an admin as there is no need
and is truly a gentleman’s forum. Roger thanks for all of
the work you have and hopefully will do.
On another subject Klaus did you get the scan of the
Jaguar/Studebaker transmission letter?–
The original message included these comments:
You are out of line and only an abject apology to Roger will do!
Klaus W. Nielsen
–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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In reply to a message from Jagdad11@aol.com sent Mon 7 Nov 2016:
re; controversy
Never wrestle with a pig. You get all muddy, and the pig
loves it.
Karl–
karl
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In reply to a message from Jagdad11@aol.com sent Mon 7 Nov 2016:
I have dealt with Roger a fair bit a couple of years ago
as I was getting the inside information to him regarding
factory fitted H8 carburetors on my 140 SE [MC]. Roger is
a man we should all respect and thank him for his picky
nature for details, as he is recording history that will
be passed on for generations to come. Also, lets not
forget that Roger’s life career has been as an Automotive
Engineer and the very nature of that profession is
‘‘correct information’’ and thank god it is! The help I
have received from Roger is ten fold to what I could
provide him!
When I first read all this stuff, I sent a personal
message to Roger to let him know we are all on his side
and I am now pleased to see more of you agree with me.–
The original message included these comments:
I concur with Klaus and George. I have had many ‘‘discussions and
exchanges’’ with Roger and I find him way over the top in his willingness to share
his vast information. While I am able to occasionally give him some
Hats off to Roger. Bob McAnelly
‘‘way’’. Roger’s research has always been spot on and in fact
he might be further along if I get the time to send him some
–
Harv XK 140
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