On my car, a 1963 (Sept, '62), it’s a series 1 3.8. But it has an all-synchro gearbox from 1965. I can tell it has the correct flywheel and factory type starter. I find in my box of parts a spacer ring. I cannot see a spacer ring on the starter but perhaps it is not visible when the starter is installed? Regardless, I am going to replace the starter with a geared starter and Steve ( MGCJAG S2 2+2) has contributed the following:
As my car is a bastard, what starter should I purchase? The engine has never been turned over since the engine was rebuilt in 1995 or thereabouts, so I do not know if the starter meshes. I’m taking the advice from J-L members to replace the starter now while the car is "in progress."
Hi Scott…first your starter is a pre engaged type so not correct for a 3.8…ok so you have an all syncro gearbox…but what bellhouseing do you have… a 4.2 one or a 3.8 thats been converted to accept the all syncro box…next what flywheel do you have a 3.8 with 104 teeth or a 4.2 that has133 teeth…these are the two factors you need to know…then when ordering depending on manufacturer and model will determine if you need the spacer or not…The spacer was only used on 4.2 bellhouseings in your photo you can see a ring dowel in one hole…these are used on both holes and locate in slightly enlarger recess holes in the 4.2 bellhouseing to correctly align the starter …Steve
Thanks Pete. I am sorting it out so I’ll find whether what I have will work or not.
A bit of an explanation. The starter and flywheel and transmission and engine were supplied and installed by a well known restoration shop in Salt Lake City probably around 1995. I have had no correspondence ever with the restorer. I had discussed some of the restoration activities with J-L under my thread, “I’m Back.” Here’s that link: I'm Back! '63 FHC
In that thread I did verify I have the correct fly wheel and starter with help from Clive Wilkinson…
Mine looks like that marked 4.2. I did not count the number of teeth, but did observe the differences between the configurations.
With my car, there are many components left undone by the restoration shop. But I believe the engine has been rebuilt: it is very clean the head ports are very clean, etc. I was told the transmission and rear end were also rebuilt, but I my self am not certain of that. Likewise with the entire rear end assembly. My initial goal is to get the engine turned over and then started so as to assure myself it does not need to be pulled and gone through. It appears to me the trany is securely attached to the engine. The rear end has many missing attachment bolts and nuts, but the actual differential housing looks like it has been freshly painted (25 years ago).
So Steve, how do I tell whether the bellhousing is for a 4.2, or a converted 3.8? I believe we know the flywheel is for a 4.2 and that the starter is also for a 4.2 vs. a 3.8. The spacer is not installed and I do note there is only one ring dowel in it. And, I have not found its match in the boxes of parts I have. (I assume one can see a spacer if it is installed between the starter and the bell housing.)
Perhaps I should start be removing the starter to establish what sort of bell housing I have?
Hi Scott…you really do need to do a tooth count…some 3.8 flywheels from other Jag models actually look like the one marked 4.2 in your photo…remove the starter and count the teath by turning engine by hand…mark teeth with chalk…you can now look at the starter mount holes in the bell housing…3.8 bell has straight drilled holes…4.2 bell the holes have a step in them that the ring dowel on your spacer fits into…Steve…Edit…just looked and counted the teeth on the photo above that you mark 4.2…it has 104 teeth so is from a 3.8 Jag…not necessarily an E type
that photo came from a friend here on J-L, so I thought it was definitive. But, oh dear! This engine has never been turned over…even by hand. So I need to do lots of checking before I attempt that. I had planned to force feed the oil through it, pull the cam covers off and lube the cams, etc. I’ve been working my way forward from the gas tank, then got into the wiring and one thing after another.
I guess I can stop the other work and attend to the engine. Aarrrgghh!
I know, I know. I want more progress than I’m making… Still, it has only been since 2003!
Steve,
You had said this starter is not correct for a 3.8L engine and is a pre-engaged type. And then added, " OK, you have a 4.2 box." I’m not sure what that all means (pre-engaged). I look up the C26252A starter and it shows it is a fit for a 4.2 engine. I guess I did not realize the 3.8L engines had an inertia type starter. Is that what you meant? Ah I think I answered my own question. I have never pulled the starter from a Series 1 3.8 before. Old fashioned type inertial starter I see.
So can’t the bell housing be distinguished by a much shorter starter “hump” that holds the bendix drive? I know when I pull the starter I’ll see the recessed mounting holes or not.
I will pull the starter out tomorrow and figure out how to count flywheel teeth.
Jumping ahead here. I do not have the remote starter solenoid for my car. The starter I do have has the built in solenoid. Is there any need for the remote solenoid? Once the starter is replaced with a geared starter?
Hi Scott…you answered all your own questions…that good…so do you need a remote starter…A high torque starter has a starter solonoid built into it…as does the existing starter you have…depends what you want to do…you have a 3.8…so if your trying to make it look original then yes…but if you just want a driver then you dint have to fit one…personaly i would fit a starter relay just so you have low current going through your starter button…Steve…just to add…re bell housing for 3.8…lets not forget there were a few different Jag models…bell houseings had different shape humps…
Thx Steve. I do have a 3.8 and the car itself is quite well done. On a rotisserie so many years ago - about 1995 and never seen outdoors since. But something occurred between my aunt and uncle and the shops doing the restoration and they took it away. Apparently quite a bit of angst and a bit of sabotaging perhaps. Then the bonnet (fully painted) and the interior (in boxes) were stolen. I find surprises almost every day still and not all of them welcomed. I like the idea of using a relay but not necessarily the correct 3.8 one. I appreciate your help.
The answer to the number of teeth on my flywheel is 33 per quarter for a total of 132 Teeth. Do I get a prize?
The bell housing mounting holes for the starter have a step in them for the ring dowels. Indeed the ring dowels are both in place. That is why the starter in Pic #2 above did not appear to be seated flush with the bell housing face. The rebuilder had simply installed the starter without the Spigot Plate and it was seated against the two ring dowels. The 1st Pic above shows a third ring dowel in the Spigot Plate.
The starter has 9 Teeth on it.
Returning to my original query, what is the correct starter for my setup? The RAC 303?
How would this mount? My current starter would need the Spigot Plate and it uses bolts and nuts. It also has a solenoid on the starter. Is the RAC 303 similar?
How does one know how far in the Bendix drive is suppose to be?
Hi Scot…close but no cigar…4.2 flywheel should have 133 teeth…but hey whats one tooth…yes you are correct so you have a full 4.2 setup bellhouseing and flywheel…As iv posted befor if you go for a Powerlite starter then its model RAC 303 its been designed and manufactured with a longer pinion so it fits straight onto the bellhouseing with no spacer required…it also has threaded mount holes like the original 4.2 starter so fits just with bolts…no nuts…if you go for another manufacturers Starter then you need one for a standard 4.2 set up but you will have to confirm with tnem if their design needs a spacer. …great to see your moveing on well…Steve
Starter, flywheel, and bellhousing must ALL be from the same model car, either 3.8 or 4.2. If you mix and match parts, you’ll have a hard time getting the starter to engage correctly, and may well end up damaging the ring gear and/or starter. So, start by identifying EXACTLY what parts you have, then make sure all three match. Anything else is a recipe for endless headaches, either now or down the road.
I’m not surprised that I’m off a tooth. I was not perfect in my estimate of the beginning and end of one quadrant of the flywheel. So I was going off the sentiment that being exact isn’t necessary. Either a bit over 100 for a 3.8 or a bit over 130 for a 4.2. But I got close! I was prepared to count them all as you can see in the pic. Once I got the engine freed up, my worries left.
Hi Ray. Yes that is what this exercise was all about. I knew my transmission was a 1965 all-synchro and the engine is the original 3.8 and the starter was a pre-engaged type from a 1967 E. The flywheel “looked” correct but then I found out that’s not the whole story. So the bell housing has the step for the ring dowels: hence 4.2. The gearbox is EJ 6557: hence a 1965 4.2 box, The flywheel has 133 teeth: hence 4.2 . The intent by the builder was to put an all synchro box in this early S1. I think it is all matching. Do you see something I am missing?
Hi Ray…thats not the whole story…yes sounds simple…“you need a 4.2 starter” Scot if after a High torque starter and there are many manufacturers and models for “4.2” but you need to get one for an E type and find out if the manufacturer has made it to fit with the spigot plate or without…quite a few 4.2 high torque starters also have the wireing connections in the wong position…Steve
